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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #151
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    I agree Cleasanta - aside from one thing - dogs do lie and you have proved it with your example. They do what they need to do in order to get what they want.

    A dog going ballistic on a head halter is not necessarily in pain

    My mums dog is outside crying like someone is murdering him - because he knows that will send mum running to his aide and let him in

    Dogs don't knowingly "lie" but they do deceive in order to get what they want - as do we lol

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occy View Post
    I agree Cleasanta - aside from one thing - dogs do lie and you have proved it with your example. They do what they need to do in order to get what they want.

    A dog going ballistic on a head halter is not necessarily in pain

    My mums dog is outside crying like someone is murdering him - because he knows that will send mum running to his aide and let him in

    Dogs don't knowingly "lie" but they do deceive in order to get what they want - as do we lol
    I agree...except lying is a conscious decision We chose whether or not to tell a lie.

    Sure they deceive...they will whimper when not in pain...like Ruby does when outside for me to let her in They will do what is needed to achieve their goal...even if they have to "lie" to us and deceive us

  3. #153
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    I haven't got involved in this discussion as I don't really feel I have anything to add. I had never heard of a prong collar till now and I thank everyone for teaching me something new.

    I am happy to say that I have not had a dog that has needed to use a collar like this but I am very much a believer in "Never say never". Until you have been in a situation I refuse to believe you know how you will react.

    Also just wanted to say, Cleasantra, I have loved your posts. Very well written, calm informative without being judgemental. I am not sure if I had welcomed you to the forum when you joined. I was having a few problems at home so have not been on here very much over the past couple of weeks but now I can say a very belated , you are a great addition here.
    The best things in life, aren't things

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tkay View Post
    I haven't got involved in this discussion as I don't really feel I have anything to add. I had never heard of a prong collar till now and I thank everyone for teaching me something new.

    I am happy to say that I have not had a dog that has needed to use a collar like this but I am very much a believer in "Never say never". Until you have been in a situation I refuse to believe you know how you will react.

    Also just wanted to say, Cleasantra, I have loved your posts. Very well written, calm informative without being judgemental. I am not sure if I had welcomed you to the forum when you joined. I was having a few problems at home so have not been on here very much over the past couple of weeks but now I can say a very belated , you are a great addition here.
    Thanx TKay

    I believe that everybody is entitled to their opinion and I am entitled to mine. I tell things the way they are. I don't pretend I am perfect with my dogs, because trust me...I am not!

    We learn new things every day and will for the rest of our lives. I have learnt not to ignorant and to start listening to people, because there ARE people out there who know more than me

    How can I disagree with K9Force regarding the Prong and E-collar??? I have not tried it on any of my dogs, so for me to say they are torture...medieval tools would be extremely ignorant and arrogant.

  5. #155
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    ok think im going to start at the bottom and work my way up

    QUOTE.You mentioned in another post you have a degree in behavioural science. Is that in human or canine behaviour? You can't use human behavioural science on dogs! You can't use canine science on felines...two different species again. Dogs with behavioural problems were not born that way. If they were...it wouldn't be possible to change a problem behaviour. Imbalance and behavioural problems are not instincts your dog has...they are human behaviours. In the wild...I doubt imbalance and behavioural problems occur amongst canines, because they are simply unacceptable behaviours. If there is any imbalance with a pack...you can be 100% sure it is dealt with immediately and promptly.QUOTE

    yes is human behaviour ( the degree is actually psychology, they just named it behavioural science) however when we learnt operant conditioning which is what we are talking about here every example, and pretty much every study/ experiment was done on animals, including dogs. there was skinners rat, pavlovs dogs ect ect, because our responce to punishment,and +/- re-enforcement is pretty much the same. so yes sometimes you can apply behavioural theory accross species...

    ok i dont have a comment about the dog pack stuff you talked about because i havent seen any research or studies on the issue, so it ould be wrong for me to comment.

    as for the stuff in red on your post
    if dogs live in the present with no regard for the future or the past. then training with the prong collar will not work, because they will not achive their goal (pulling) becuase of a punishment (and according to this lady behaviours that lead to goals getting met are the only ones that are repeated).
    another example is why do dogs bury food/bones....for future use when time are tough (foward thinking) (not imediate self satisfaction)
    why do servely punished dogs not repeat a behaviour (even though a goal was not reached?) (they think back to a past event and associate pain with the behaviour)....

    ok as for the naughty chair rule (which i had as a kid) it is a punishment. you are not taking away a condition you are adding one to Weaken a behaviour (the naughty behaviour)
    whith the removal of the xbox = negative reenforcment, because next time they will more than likely be good ( you are removing a condion, so that you strengthen a good behaviour) you watch TV if your good =Positive reenforcement

    discipline and punishment
    well the term discipline is not really used in conjuction with operant condtioning.. however....we use punishment +/- reenforcment try to enstil good behaviour. sustaining good behaviour= a disciplined behaviour.....but generaly if your refering to training anything human or dog for instance it falls under punishment
    Discipline=
    punish in order to gain control or enforce obedience; "The teacher disciplined the pupils rather frequently"
    the act of punishing; "the offenders deserved the harsh discipline they received"

    i know your not trying to start a fight and i will happilly discuss anything with anyone as long as they are respectful and honest

  6. #156
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    ok i dont have a comment about the dog pack stuff you talked about because i havent seen any research or studies on the issue, so it ould be wrong for me to comment.

    "Pack Mentality in Dogs
    Many dog owners experience behavioral problems with their dogs. To have a healthy relationship with the dog, the owner needs to understand a dogs pack behavior and how it relates to the home environment. The basis for this relationship is to learn how to be the Alpha of your pack. What we call family ,your dog sees as his pack. Dogs are inherently a social pack animal. Therefore dogs have a structured leadership hierarchy. At the top of the pack is the dominant or alpha dog. This dog sets the rules which other pack members accept. The dogs nature is to either submit to those who are dominant or dominate those who are submissive. The dog has no choice in this way of acting, it is an instinctive behavior that would normally have insured survival of the pack. The breakdown of this leadership hierarchy is the main cause of behavioral problems within your pack. Behaviors which might be insignificant or slightly annoying to you have much more meaning to your dog. Examples are: leading you (pulling on the leash); bolting out of the door in front of you; when he tells you when it's time for play, bathroom, praise or eating; or choosing who you need protection from etc. All of these and more, in the dogs eyes establish them as the dominant one or Alpha leader of your pack. A worse scenario for the dog is to be leader one day and the next day stripped of his title. Dogs do not perceive gray areas, if its not black and white the dog suffers. The dog in this situation logically thinks he can decide what to chew, who to bite, what and where to eat etc. To complicate things, the dog feels that he has to test and challenge you to find his place within the pack and to see what rules apply today. This will lead to a stressed, neurotic animal that is labeled stupid, aggressive, untrainable and off to the pound it goes. Then usually the family goes to find a "smarter" dog. Obedience training, if done successfully, establishes a clear cut set of rules that are consistent. This not only shows the dog in a positive way rules to live by (making life easier for you), but fulfills the dogs need to have a fair, strong confident leader. Obedience training (formal) should be aimed at the owners and the dog comes for the ride. Through structured discipline, the family learns how the dog thinks and the needs of his species. The dog gains emotional well being from learning, accomplishing and pleasing the pack leader (you!). Behavior problems start to disappear. The dog is receiving positive attention instead of yelling, hitting, being put away or eventually being put down. You will be amazed at what a happy, smart and stable dog you've got when you learn about the dog instead of trying to make the dog into a person (humanizing). We all benefit from the rapport or relationship that can only come from a mutual understanding and coexistence between two different species. Presented as a public service by Jim Mathys, of Quality K-9 Services at 941-723-6763."
    Pack Mentality in Dogs

    My opinion...People have a tendency to underestimate the pack mentality in the doggy world and also their ingrown instincts.. We have all at some point thought...why in heavens name is he burying that bone when I feed him twice a day...well, now you know Humans are the reasons for our pets instabilities and imbalances. We have 2 dogs...1 male staffy 8 months desexed 5 days ago and 1 female staffy 6 months and entire. It is quite obvious who is the alpha amongst them and that is Sumo...for now. But that can change tomorrow. Where we humans go wrong is that...we have this emotional belief that it will always be that way...that Sumo was here first, so obviously he should be highest in their hierarchy. Their hierarchy can change tomorrow and for them to remain balanced...I MUST respect that. Sumo is fed first...he comes in the kitchen when I am getting food ready (and I am ok with this) and Ruby doesn't enter...she sits and waits outside the kitchen. When they are outside and I let them in...Sumo ALWAYS goes through the door before Ruby...she waits.

    if dogs live in the present with no regard for the future or the past. then training with the prong collar will not work, because they will not achive their goal (pulling) becuase of a punishment

    Using a prong collar is no more punishment than using a head halter/GL then...GL stops the pulling...which stops dog from achieving their goal. The prong collar pinches the neck like mummy dog would when telling puppy off...GL restricts movement and puts pressure on the sensitive nerves on the dog's nose...both equal consequence for pulling.

    another example is why do dogs bury food/bones....for future use when time are tough (foward thinking) (not imediate self satisfaction)

    "Why do dogs bury bones in the ground? Because they can't bury them in trees! You may have heard that old chestnut, but in reality, burying bones is a serious business for dogs that is driven by heredity and instinct.

    To understand why your dog buries his bones, even though you feed him twice a day, you have to understand his nature. You can do this by looking at your dog's genetic heritage. Although dogs have been around for millions of years, they have only been domesticated for a few thousand years, and they spent a lot of time developing behaviors that helped them to survive.

    One of the most important behaviors had to do with finding and maintaining an adequate food supply. Being carnivores, dogs might sometimes kill a prey animal large enough to feed the entire pack, like a moose or a mammoth. Alternatively, when small prey animals were abundant , they might kill many of these bite-sized creatures.

    Either way, they often found themselves with more food than they could eat at once. However, they could never be sure when they would be able to find and kill another prey, and much time could pass – sometimes weeks – without them finding another meal. So to be on the safe side, they carried the bones, which were filled with nutrient-rich marrow, back to their lair, and buried them nearby. When food was scarce, they could always rely on the bones to keep them fed.

    This process is called caching or hoarding, and it is common among dogs, wolves and foxes. In fact, other animals practice a form of caching; squirrels gather enough nuts to last through the winter, and camels store enough food and water to last for several days in the desert. Our domesticated dogs may have their food handed to them each day in sufficient quantities, but they still carry this caching trait and bury their bones or toys in the back yard – or even under your pillows – to guard against a possible shortage of food.

    So, why do dogs bury bones in the ground? Because it's in their nature."


    discipline and punishment

    I understand the difference between discipline and punishment

    Punishment is the act of reprimanding a dog through power, abuse of force and intimidation, whereas discipline is the act of guiding the dog towards correct and wanted behaviors and setting the dog up for success. The goal of both forms of training is ultimately the same: getting the dog to perform a task without making any mistakes, however, it is the end result that really makes the difference.

    Very likely a dog that is punished will become fearful, lack trust in their owners and perform tasks mainly because they fear the consequences, while a dog that is disciplined will perform the task because he wants to please the owner and is eager to continue doing so. The end results are therefore dogs that work because they are forced to and dogs that work because they want to.

    I can't see how the prong collar is any different to the check chain and head halti's/GL when it comes to discipline/punishment. They are all training tools...when dog pulls, they all have their different consequence/punishment. Prong collar = pinch on neck and pull stops. Check collar = tightened sensation, check sound and pull stops. GL/Halti = restricted movement, pressure on sensitive part of nose and pull stops. In all those collars...dog learn to stop pulling, because of the consequence if he does.

    When Mummy dog snaps at puppy for being too rough with her or Ruby snaps at Sumo when he is too interested in her girly bits...is that punishment or discipline...in your opinion. She didn't do that to punish the puppy and Ruby didn't do that to punish Sumo...they are doing it to teach what is acceptable and what isn't. We don't question this behaviour for one second "because it is instinctual". We for sure do not believe it will leave a lifelong...detrimental effect on the puppy and/or Sumo.

    i know your not trying to start a fight and i will happilly discuss anything with anyone as long as they are respectful and honest Of course I am not

  7. #157
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    the post about pack mentality again its not legitamate enough for me to make coment its simply a statment written with no refrences to scientific papers, so its pretty much just someones point of view, im not saying its right or wrong im saying its not refrenced so can only be taken with a grain of salt.

    its in their nature does not explain anything and what you said re enstates my point about how they are foward thinking and do not simply live in the present. they are planning for the future....

    as i said before punishment does not need to be cruel. ie puting your kids on the naughty chair is a form of punishment as is beating your child. they are both punishment just at differing levels.
    discipline is not a form of behaviour modification, it is a term that is now used to describe punishment. there is no difference.

    im sorry i do not agree with the prong collar acting like a mother dog, its a lame justification with no proof what so ever

  8. #158
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    Cleasanta

    I'm one of the ones that disputes that dogs operate in packs with one dominant leader (alpha). I also dispute the assumptions that various things that dogs do are to establish doggy "dominance".

    While I do agree that our dogs should not be making all our decisions for us, I don't agree with letting the people who believe in "Alpha" theory make the decisions for me either.

    And any graphic designer and possibly most of the readers of this forum can tell you that HUGE BLOCKS of unbroken text are extremely difficult to read. That's why we have paragraphs with white space between them. Bleah.

    Most of the rest of what you wrote - I agree with.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    And any graphic designer and possibly most of the readers of this forum can tell you that HUGE BLOCKS of unbroken text are extremely difficult to read. That's why we have paragraphs with white space between them. Bleah.
    The ONLY text that is not "broken" into paragraphs is the one referenced...I did not want to change the way it was written!

    I am pretty sure the rest of my post was paragraphed.

  10. #160
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    Cleasanta

    I don't know why you think putting some white space in would "change the way it was written". I don't know why you think that's important since you are quite happy to cut and paste it to here anyway. If you didn't get the writer's permission, that's breach of copyright anyway. Not that anyone except the Murdochs seem to care much.

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