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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #141
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    oh yeah and with your kids if you say be good and youl get a treat for instance... if they be good they get a treat = positive re enforcment if they dont they dont get a treat next time they know if theyre good theyl get a treat and if theyre bad they wont..= negative reenforcement.(strengthen behaviour)

    if you belt your kids when theyre bad = punishment (weaken behaviour)
    get what i mean by streangthen and weaken behaviours??

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by laura77 View Post
    oh yeah and with your kids if you say be good and youl get a treat for instance... if they be good they get a treat = positive re enforcment if they dont they dont get a treat next time they know if theyre good theyl get a treat and if theyre bad they wont..= negative reenforcement.(strengthen behaviour)

    if you belt your kids when theyre bad = punishment (weaken behaviour)
    get what i mean by streangthen and weaken behaviours??
    Man your getting deep.....
    I was a little confused but yeah I get what your saying now.

  3. #143
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    Laura77

    The noseband on a horse, isn't necessarily controlled by the human, but like the prong collar the punishment is self inflicted eg when the horse tries to open his mouth (to spit the bit out or bite another horse or rider). Also they can be done up so tight as to cause pain, which subdues the horse generally. But I think this would be abuse of the noseband. There are other nose, chin compression systems that are controlled directly by the rider - double bridles with chin chains have these. These can be abused by unskilled or angry riders too.

    My horse - the rig that came with him, had a noseband, drop noseband and a martingale - to assist with pulling his head down so the nose was perpendicular to the ground. Piece by piece, I took all that kind of stuff off him - though I did keep the bit. And his behaviour improved. The main problem was - pulling a horse's head down so the nose is perpendicular, looks pretty and is important in the dressage ring, but it prevents a horse from seeing where he is going. Depending on the horse this can be good or it can be bad. For my horse - who was so ancient he probably had cateracts, it was bad.

    The pirelli nose knot rope halters - can damage a horse, because with these - a rider can apply direct pressure to a horse's nose. Ordinary halters can lead to horses injuring themselves - that's why it's best not to leave them on when the horse is unsupervised in a paddock or stable.

  4. #144
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    yeah i know ive ridden for years i guess if improperly used ( ie too tight) i guess i just never thought anyone could be so horrible....

    ive always used a nose band but i could fit at least 3 fingures under it.

    i agree the martingale when used in the ring is not very nice it reduces the horses visability as well and it musnt be to comfortable!!

  5. #145

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    oooh I just knew I shouldn't of looked back in here.
    Now we're talking about parelli and Dressage....oh dear....I promised to behave and all.

    Look,to begin with,the drop,crank or hanaverian nosebands only come into play if the horse itself attempts to open its gob too far in evasion ofthe bit.A horse does not try to 'spit' the bit out.

    A martingale is not used to keep a horses head tucked down with his nose perpendicular to the ground.A martingale only comes into play if the horse attempts to throw its head high,above the bit,effectively giving you much les control.It works on the reins and is a common and useful tool.

    We do not need a horse to tuck its head in,with its nose perpendicular to the ground,for dressage.In fact,in dreassage,the poll should be the highest point of the horse but effectively still on the bit.A horses head tucked into its chest is not on the bit.
    It does not lesen the vision .

    Parelli....ok.....I will just say that I have followed natural horsemanship for years.A bit of this a bit of that.Take what I need from each that works.
    The thing with natural horsemanship is that it is simply good old common horse sense.
    A rope halter can NOT break a horses nose.
    I would very much like to know where you heard that from.

    A rope halter works in much the same way as a martingale dog collar,check chain etc etc does compared to just a flat dog collar.
    Trust me,when handling very large,very young,very exhuberant warmbloods,i know which I would prefer to have on and its certainly not a nylon flat halter.



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  6. #146
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    hmm yes i think i too was confused i was thinking of the devise used in carriage horses that pulled their heads up not down....

    i used martingales and see no difference in using one or not unless the horse starts throwing its head around..

    i struggled to visualise the noseband scenario....and so yes choppa i agree with you about everything..
    i think my brain has got sick of argueing on this thread.

  7. #147
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    The halter and bridle work in the same way p

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by laura77 View Post
    oh yeah and with your kids if you say be good and youl get a treat for instance... if they be good they get a treat = positive re enforcment if they dont they dont get a treat next time they know if theyre good theyl get a treat and if theyre bad they wont..= negative reenforcement.(strengthen behaviour)

    if you belt your kids when theyre bad = punishment (weaken behaviour)
    get what i mean by streangthen and weaken behaviours??
    Laura...I am trying to understand this and I am definitely not trying to start a fight Where does the time-out chair fit into this? Your child does something wrong...they get time-out. Do you call this discipline or punishment.

    We have taught our children that there are consequences...good or bad. You do your chores like you are supposed to = getting your pocket money. You don't do your chores = no pocket money. You misbehave = time-out chair...you behave = you can watch TV like you wanted. You lie = you lose your Xbox 360...you tell the truth = you get to keep Xbox 360.

    There are consequences with everything in life. With every action there is a reaction...good or bad. It is our job to teach them how to be balanced adults. It is also our job and responsibility to teach our dogs to be happy, balanced and well- behaved dogs.

    Taken from website: Dogs and Puppies are Opportunists! | Dog Puppy Behavior Training Help

    Dogs follow one rule – “What’s in it for me – right now?” Dogs have no concept of right or wrong, good or bad. I do not believe dogs are concerned about yesterday or tomorrow. I believe dogs are interested in the present and how they can get what they want at this instant in time.

    Dogs do what they do because their behaviors are instrumental in getting what they desire– period.

    Animals perform voluntary behaviors that are instrumental in achieving their immediate goals.

    Voluntary behaviors that achieve immediate goals are repeated.

    Voluntary behaviors that fail to achieve immediate goals are discontinued.

    Happy Training!

    Alan J Turner – How’s Bentley Memphis TN
    21st Century Canine Relationship Specialist


    Scenario: Your dog is pulling you down the street. You decide you have had enough! You buy a head halter and put it on your dog. She fights you...jumping up and down...making this high-pitched sounds like she is in pain. You immediately take off the Halti, because you believe it is hurting your dog and you feel sorry for her. Dog won...she got what she wanted...you took the collar off. What did she learn from that?

    Same scenario...but this time you do not give in and do not take the halti off. Dog eventually give up her fight. What did she learn from that?

    First scenario she learned you are a quitter...second she learned you are not a quitter! I am guilty of doing this with a different dog I had. I tried every collar on the market that is accessible from vets, pet shops etc. I didn't teach him anything but show him I was a quitter and he would eventually win the battle.

    Dogs don't use sarcasm and they don't lie. IMO...I also believe dogs are egotistic beings that do things for their own gratification. Example...Sumo comes up and gives me one of his "special" cuddles which include...hugging my neck really tight and a lot of licking. I KNOW he is not doing it for MY sake. The reason why I know this is because he will do it for maybe 20 seconds and just stop and leave. He satisfied HIS need for this contact and when it was satified...he left. Ruby cuddles up to us on the lounge...she is not doing this to make us feel better...she is doing it for her own sake.

    I think humans have a blurred vision when it comes to how dogs think. Dogs don't do things to make you feel better...they do things to make themselves feel better and to get what they want. Children on the other hand will come and say..."are you ok Mum because you seem sad" and they will give you a hug to make YOU feel better...it is not for their own gratification. I know what people are going to say now and that is "when I feel sad...Fido comes up and cuddles up to me". Maybe Fido is doing this because they can feel your energy is out of balance and in doggy world...imbalance is not acceptable.

    I agree there is a difference between discipline and punishment!

    You mentioned in another post you have a degree in behavioural science. Is that in human or canine behaviour? You can't use human behavioural science on dogs! You can't use canine science on felines...two different species again. Dogs with behavioural problems were not born that way. If they were...it wouldn't be possible to change a problem behaviour. Imbalance and behavioural problems are not instincts your dog has...they are human behaviours. In the wild...I doubt imbalance and behavioural problems occur amongst canines, because they are simply unacceptable behaviours. If there is any imbalance with a pack...you can be 100% sure it is dealt with immediately and promptly.

    We humans think too much. We procrastinate and analyse. Canines don't do that...they react to a situation out of instinct.

    K9Force...if I have got these things wrong...please tell me where I was wrong regarding the canine behaviour

  9. #149

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleasanta View Post
    You can't use canine science on felines...
    "Dogs have Masters ... cats have servants."

    Dogs come when they're called ....... cats ask you to take a message & they'll get back to the caller at their convenience."

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSDs4Ever View Post
    "Dogs have Masters ... cats have servants."

    Dogs come when they're called ....... cats ask you to take a message & they'll get back to the caller at their convenience."
    Good analysis actually

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