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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #131
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    L: DA, i have used a halti (not sure if this is the same as a gentle leader) and have stopped due to my shep disliking it greatly. i used the halti mainly because she is a rescue and very unpredictable around other dogs and using the halti i could shut her mouth if i needed to (which i havent).
    K9: keep in mind this unpredictability could see her lunge, causing a neck injury. In many cases fear driven aggression is heightened with pressure to the nerves in the face & restriction of the jaw (ie halter use)

    *********************************

    A: Look, I, think that there are better alternatives(and dont you dare ask what that alternative is) and I think those 'alternatives' should be tried out before the prong collar.
    K9: Ok but if you havent used a prong collar correctly, your not talking from an experienced place.

    Gentle Leaders & Halters are different brands & have different locations for leash connections, however they both use leverage on the dogs head & the fulcrum or pivot point is the last vertebrae of the neck.

    Not a good idea.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  2. #132

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cleasanta View Post
    I might be an idiot for not quite understanding this method...but I would love to be able to try it on Sumo!!!!!
    I never think people are idiots Lovey just because they ask questions & are unsure of what's written. What part of the description isn't "working" for you ? I've suggested this method to other people with strong dogs that love to lunge & pull and it's worked every time for them. And I must say they were RAPPED with the result they got within a very short space of time.

  3. #133
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    [QUOTE=Aussie Floyd;27394]
    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    [COLOR="DarkRed"] My response to your question is my own personal experience only & it worked just fine with positive outcomes & nor am i encouraging it or pushing it on too anyone else.

    I have trained 2 dogs, my own 2 dogs in a gentle humane manner without the use or need for any type of training collar.
    K9: Ok will you concede that two dogs isn't a training career & that there are many different dogs out there with various levels of drive & that your own personal method just may not work for every dog?

    I must say I have 2 very well behaved well mannered pleasant dogs, that are fully house & toilet trained, both are non destructible, both don’t chew anything that is not theirs, their bedding is still intact, they only chew on their own chew toys or their food or dinner bones. Both don’t pull or tug me while being walked, even my children can control & walk both of my dogs without the dogs misbehaving or tugging or pulling on the lead.
    K9: Ok sounds nice, I had a dog here that just left an hour ago with all these characteristics, except it was insanely dog aggressive & when the owner tried to pull the dog away from another dog, it would attack the owner.

    Do you think ignoring this dog will help?

    Both of my dogs were adopted by me, Floyd adopted at 7yrs old & he was toilet & house trained when i adopted him & by whom i don’t know, if on the rare occasion that Floyd needs to go to the toilet in the middle of night, he comes upstairs & wakes me to let him outside for toilet run.
    K9: Ok in case you dont know, prong collars are used for toilet training & at 7 years old, your past the destructive stage, drive stage etc so you have in most cases a relatively calm dog.

    He did have a habit of tugging & pulling while walking, but he soon over came that & now walks beside me or if i feel like it i do let him walk in front of me as he does like to be guard & protect my kids & me & i don’t have a single problem with that at all ( i like the idea that he is guarding & looking out for my children’s & i safety etc)
    K9: The only dog that will do this is one that is showing dominance, you may want to reconsider what is good & what isnt.


    & he does listen & stop if i ask him to do so. It was quiet easy to train him to stop pulling & tugging me or my children while walking, whenever he tugged or pulled, i would get him to sit & we would just wait & at the same time i would just ignore him as if he weren’t there, he soon learnt that he wasn’t getting my attention & (that’s he’s worst fear as SBT’s love nothing more than human affection or attention), after ignoring him for a few minutes, we would start walking again & i would reward him with kind praises & pats & as soon as he pulled or tugged again we would repeat the sitting / ignoring process again. This personal training method of mine worked a treat & it only took a few walks to perfect.
    K9: on a 7 year old dog.

    In Regards to recall at leash free park or at home while playing etc, i use yet again my own personal training method, if Floyd or Zep did not respond to me calling them i would walk over to them, put them back on the leash & walk to a park bench or to my car & i would just sit & ignore them for a few mins, then we would go back into leash free park, i let them off the lead & let them have free run / playtime, i would call them & if no response i would do repeat the sit down & ignore process, when either of my dogs do listen to me & respond to me calling them i reward them with food treats, pats & lots of positive kind words, it didn’t take long for either 1 of my dogs to realize what was going on & i soon had 2 dogs that were great at recall.
    K9: I think you would have a hard time selling that to a young exuberant dog.

    Zeppelin (RIP) was adopted by me @ 1 yr old, he was toilet & house trained & he too like Floyd needed some training in regards to walking & recall etc & i used the same training ( my personal training method) method on Zep as i used on Floyd.
    I never used any type of training collar, i used a regular collar whilst training, walking my dogs & i use the same same type of collar for everyday use.

    K9: Again sounds great, if you would like to come to my facility & train some of the dogs we have coming through in your personal method, your welcome to come show me up???
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  4. #134
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    I gotta agree with K9 on the recall - if my dog doesn't come at all when I call - there's no way she's going to let me put her on lead either. Though putting a dog on lead when it does come is one way to encourage it not to.

    I can't figure out how you could use a prong collar for toilet training?

    K9 - have you ever tried the front attach harness? I don't think it has as many risks to the spine and neck as the nose band collars. It doesn't teach "inhibition" though. Take it off in the places where you need it and woo - pulling dog again.

    Also nose bands (used with bridles) are designed to cause a horse discomfort / pain in the same way as the dog nose bands. And horses can be injured by the incorrect use. Pat Parelli uses a rope halter with two knots that fit either side of a horse's nose - and if used incorrectly - can break a horse's nose.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by k9force View Post
    K9: It isn't punishment as such, rather a negative experience that motivates the dog to experiment, dogs will continue on the same habit until a better stimulus is offered or a negative experience is applied, then they will modify their behaviour.

    This isn't my view, its behavioural science.
    you've got i wrong here.. it is a punishment, and all punishments are a negative experience. negative reenforcment is i form of operant conditioning that strengthens a behaviour. while punishment weakens a behaviour. hence the pain caused by the prong collar pinching the dog weakens the pulling on the lead behaviour. however dog who is punished learns an association between a behaviour and a punishment it does not associate walking "nicely" with being a good dog. using negative or positive renforcment they will associate the removal or addition of a condtion, and learn the desired behaviour through reenforcement of them behaving correctly. such as a reward for heeling, or the comand sit and the walk promptly stopped until the desired behaviour is demonstrated.

    i have a degree in behavioural science .

  6. #136
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    Thank God! Still some humanity left! to all those who oppose force.

  7. #137
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    QUOTE.Also nose bands (used with bridles) are designed to cause a horse discomfort / pain in the same way as the dog nose bands. And horses can be injured by the incorrect use.QUOTE

    ermm its hard to believe that the nose band on a bridle (standard) could cause pain and discomfort, as no pressure is actually put on the nose band (unless you physically grab it) the nose band is attatched a strap that goes up around the ears and a completley different strap to which the bit is attatched, and when riding this is the only point on the hosre that tension is applied

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by laura77 View Post
    you've got i wrong here.. it is a punishment, and all punishments are a negative experience. negative reenforcment is i form of operant conditioning that strengthens a behaviour. while punishment weakens a behaviour. hence the pain caused by the prong collar pinching the dog weakens the pulling on the lead behaviour. however dog who is punished learns an association between a behaviour and a punishment it does not associate walking "nicely" with being a good dog. using negative or positive renforcment they will associate the removal or addition of a condtion, and learn the desired behaviour through reenforcement of them behaving correctly. such as a reward for heeling, or the comand sit and the walk promptly stopped until the desired behaviour is demonstrated.

    i have a degree in behavioural science .
    Still i think some negative reinforcement as well as positve, is needed to train as the mother dog uses negative reinforcement with her pups to teach them acceptible behaviour, which is natural.
    As humans we use negative reinforcement (and positive) on our kids to teach them right from wrong.

    I say beat your kids more.... LOL! Ok, relax I'm joking.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obie16813 View Post
    I say beat your kids more.... LOL! Ok, relax I'm joking.
    I knew I should have been giving my kids a floggin'

  10. #140
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    there is a difference between negative renforcment and punishment its quite a confusing concept.

    negative reenforcment takes away a condition like if your dog jumps on you and you turn your back and dont pay it attention until it behaves thus strengthening the good behavior. negative reenforcement strengthens a behaviour, where as punishment weakens a behaviour so if you hit your dog because it jumps thats weakening the jumping behaviour.

    however the forgetting curve is steeper with behaviours associated with punishment

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