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Thread: Prong Collars, Why?

  1. #121

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    [QUOTE=k9force;27163]
    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie Floyd View Post
    Prong collars, Why??

    Why use such fooking barbaric things.

    K9: what makes you think they are barbaric? Perhaps you can share your experience with them & help us learn why you think they are babaric?

    IMO they are barbaric just like any other object that inflicts any emotional or physical pain to any animal & that is something that i'm am strongly against.


    If anyone has not used one I would be happy to explain more about their uses.


    No thanks, im no way interested in your excuse for using such barbaric collar on my dogs & have no intention of doing so.

    K9: Ok, first I doint need an excuse & wasnt offering one, second no one said anything about putting one on your dog and if your not interested in hearing about prong collars, why reply to the thread?

    I replied to this thread because i have the right to express my opinions on any topic if i wish to do so.


    Do you wish to stop anyoine hearoing about their success in case it proves you wrong?

    Please explain what you meant by “anyoine hearoing” ??

    K9: lol do you mean FYI, (four your information?)

    Well, please excuse me for a typing error lol.

    K9: what makes you think that training a dog by humane standards is the right way? dogs arent human.


    Yes i know dogs are not human,( but my fav breed likes to think that they are human, bless them) doesn’t mean they don’t feel physical or emotional pain, I know both my SBT'S have felt both physical & emotional pain thro no fault of mine or theirs. I believe that any animal can & does feel pain I don’t believe that any animal deserves to be trained by applying pain.



    K9: Perhaps you can enlighten us more with how many dogs you have trained?
    My response to your question is my own personal experience only & it worked just fine with positive outcomes & nor am i encouraging it or pushing it on too anyone else.

    I have trained 2 dogs, my own 2 dogs in a gentle humane manner without the use or need for any type of training collar. I must say I have 2 very well behaved well mannered pleasant dogs, that are fully house & toilet trained, both are non destructible, both don’t chew anything that is not theirs, their bedding is still intact, they only chew on their own chew toys or their food or dinner bones. Both don’t pull or tug me while being walked, even my children can control & walk both of my dogs without the dogs misbehaving or tugging or pulling on the lead. ( pls note that I’m not irresponsible & i don’t allow my children to walk either dog without myself or my oh present).
    I use the same technique as i used on my human kids, IGNORE unacceptable behavior & PRAISE PRAISE & MORE PRAISING of acceptable behavior.

    Both of my dogs were adopted by me, Floyd adopted at 7yrs old & he was toilet & house trained when i adopted him & by whom i don’t know, if on the rare occasion that Floyd needs to go to the toilet in the middle of night, he comes upstairs & wakes me to let him outside for toilet run. He did have a habit of tugging & pulling while walking, but he soon over came that & now walks beside me or if i feel like it i do let him walk in front of me as he does like to be guard & protect my kids & me & i don’t have a single problem with that at all ( i like the idea that he is guarding & looking out for my children’s & i safety etc) & he does listen & stop if i ask him to do so. It was quiet easy to train him to stop pulling & tugging me or my children while walking, whenever he tugged or pulled, i would get him to sit & we would just wait & at the same time i would just ignore him as if he weren’t there, he soon learnt that he wasn’t getting my attention & (that’s he’s worst fear as SBT’s love nothing more than human affection or attention), after ignoring him for a few minutes, we would start walking again & i would reward him with kind praises & pats & as soon as he pulled or tugged again we would repeat the sitting / ignoring process again. This personal training method of mine worked a treat & it only took a few walks to perfect.
    In Regards to recall at leash free park or at home while playing etc, i use yet again my own personal training method, if Floyd or Zep did not respond to me calling them i would walk over to them, put them back on the leash & walk to a park bench or to my car & i would just sit & ignore them for a few mins, then we would go back into leash free park, i let them off the lead & let them have free run / playtime, i would call them & if no response i would do repeat the sit down & ignore process, when either of my dogs do listen to me & respond to me calling them i reward them with food treats, pats & lots of positive kind words, it didn’t take long for either 1 of my dogs to realize what was going on & i soon had 2 dogs that were great at recall.

    Zeppelin (RIP) was adopted by me @ 1 yr old, he was toilet & house trained & he too like Floyd needed some training in regards to walking & recall etc & i used the same training ( my personal training method) method on Zep as i used on Floyd.
    I never used any type of training collar, i used a regular collar whilst training, walking my dogs & i use the same same type of collar for everyday use.

    I don’t care if anyone is skeptic about the my own personal training method, as far as i’m concerned it worked in a positive manner & that’s the main thing. I have 2 very well behaved, trustworthy, easily pleased, loving Stafford’s that i’m very proud of regardless of anyone else’s opinion.
    That is all is all i have to say on the matter, i've said my bit & don’t wish to participate in this topic anymore.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate View Post
    You sound like my hubby! Booze doesn't exist here. Hubby says he's got very few brain cells as it is, so he can't manage to lose any more. Lol.
    hahahahahaha!!!!

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Occy View Post
    Give the woman a beer!

    ...then...

  4. #124
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    M: k9, are you calling me a liar?
    K9: I am saying its a convenient story that supports your view that cant be verified by anyone.
    The lady in question did not sit on the dog because it was perfectly ok. The dog was vicious with her and bit her.
    K9: Ok so it was vicious before, the first time I heard the story it was beautiful dog she ruined by training with force. Now its a dog that wasnt cured by force.

    She sat on it until it stopped growling. She learnt at her commando classes that she has to make the dog submit to her and treat it with force to show him she's the top dog.
    K9: & of course this is your view of what she was told to do...

    Commando classes are very well known and many have had training there. I am surprised that you, as a trainer, don't know they exist. They teach you to use force.
    K9: I am aware of many different types of clubs, dont know any that call themselves Commando, meaning it is a slang term that you have created.

    **************************

    Jodz: I was told that halti's were ok to use (by a number of people, ranging from the lady from SAFE who was looking after Chloe, to a vet, to a pet shop owner)...
    K9: Keeping in mind though none of these guys are qualified trainers.

    Can someone please explain why they are so bad?

    K9: Here is an article I have written K9 Force Professional Dog Training & Behaviour Consultancy

    And also what the hell should I do then? She chokes herself on her normal collar and lead, the halti she responded really well to, and as for choke chains well i'm not going there.
    K9: I dont use check chains either s maybe you could consider a martingale, the tool though is only part of the solution, there needs to be a plan to work through which will provide technique, application of pressure & rewards & how to deal with distractions.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  5. #125
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    H: K9 - I'm not sure it is worth all the effort of dealing with the closed minded, when some of the rest of us are interested in being informed. There's always the "ignore" function if you (or they) need to remove the temptation of responding to a "wind up" or "troll". That's the thing with the internet - at one time, only the computer savvy could get in, but now anybody can and some are completely closed minded.
    K9: I know what you mean H, I think everyone is entitled to being allowed to learn, these debates never occur when I run seminars or workshops & there are a couple of reasons for this but the main one is, once I have the dog the results are obvious & there is no where to criticise. Thanks though...
    *********************
    A: Im not sure I understand this 100%
    Going by what your saying I have fixed Lady's problem?
    K9: I dont doubt this, but in my experience, anytime a problem could be fixed with a halter or GL, it could have been done with a flat collar, less risk same results.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  6. #126
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    I really do with Malinois would post.
    Education not Legislation

  7. #127
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    L: hmmm i dont know, i mean i understand how the collar works from a behaviour modification perspective, however its the use of punishment as a motivator that i do not agree with.
    K9: It isn't punishment as such, rather a negative experience that motivates the dog to experiment, dogs will continue on the same habit until a better stimulus is offered or a negative experience is applied, then they will modify their behaviour.

    This isn't my view, its behavioural science.
    i also do not understand how some people can argue against the use of haltis and check chains but advocate the use of the prong collar.
    K9: It is simple, the prong collar is an effective training tool with no to very low risk & head halters are not.

    Your grouping all the tools together as tools that cause discomfort, but there is more to it than that.

    I posted a link to my Halter article, it explains in more detail there.

    it makes no sense if you do not like the afore mentioned collars becuase of the possible pain and discomfort the cause the dog then why advocate the use of a collar which causes pain if not more so?
    K9: Pain/discomfort may be a necessity for some dogs, injury isn't.
    also remember that your dog has been cooped up all day behaving its self, and when you go out for a walk it should be a relaxing experience for both you and your dog. i hardly see how the dog can relax and enjoy its walk if its worried about being pinched on the sensitive skin around his neck.
    K9: Many dogs pull because it is a habit, the walk does need to be relaxed, for both the handler & the dog. So training is needed.

    positive and negative re enforcement are better methods im my opinion for training an animal. some of the previous posts demonstrate lack of knowledge and ignorance about animal behaviour and learning and it scares me that people would use these collars without knowing how their dog learns and responds to punishment.
    K9: As mentioned, I recommend people get professional advice before using any tool.

    there was a justification that dogs are pleasure/ reward seekers and avoid pain thats why these collars are so good and so on, however most animals including humans are the same.
    K9: No two humans or no two dogs are the same.

    it doesn't mean that we use pain to modify behaviour i think it is just wrong and that it is taking the easy way out.
    K9: Life is about application of pressure to reduce the likeliness of a behaviour, speeding fines although inconsistent are just one example.

    sure if you cause enough discomfort ad pain you could get any animal to modify its behaviour. but through fear of the consequence and not through learnt good behaviour.
    K9: perhaps it would be helpful if you were to observe how training occurs & see that fear & pain are not associated with correction if carried out correctly.
    Steve Courtney, K9 Pro - The K9 Professionals

    www.k9pro.com.au

    Official Forum Trainer and Behaviourist

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimi1 View Post
    "I don't like people who think like Mimi deciding for me what tools I can and cannot use"
    Hyacinth. I have only spoken about my experience. I have every right to express MY opinion. I you read my posts, the word "I" is clear in every sentence.
    Funny how the people who attack are the same ones. Just read Kassie's threads and you will see the same names appearing.
    Mimi1
    In my state both the prong collars and electric collars are banned. As best I can tell you think they are cruel - people who think the same as you have banned them in my state - the same as you, they've no practical experience of when these tools can be used for good. Hence my statement. I have my opinion too. And I haven't said you can't have yours. I don't see how what I wrote is an "attack". I also clearly stated in the KJ thread that I had not read any of her posts, so I can't see how my posts were an attack on her. I was trying to help there by being direct and specific with suggestions - because that is usually what works best with Autisitc people and that's what she said she was (according to posts quoted by others).

    I haven't noticed you being specific about any training method that would be successful with my dog, eg no treats and no collar? My dog would be home with someone else by now if I had tried that method only.

    I've also noticed that you are quite happy to attack K9 and others for their opinions and get all uppity and defensive when you think someone attacks yours. You're doing the internet equivalent of screaming. And you don't seem to be backed up by any rational thought or evidence. Now there's an attack for you.

  9. #129

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    I use a very quick & easy method taught to me by a Great Dane owner. Use either a long lead or 2 leads looped together. Arrange so that the lead is flopping on the dog's chest. Tara is an incredibly strong dog. When she was younger, she hated being at school, probably because her skin irritation & subsequent, relentless scratching was driving her bananas (poor love). None of the recommended suggestions worked. I was shown how to work the leads & got success very quickly. At first she reared up like a horse, tried backing out of the arrangement & was generally a tantrum thrower. Within 10 minutes though, there she was, walking happily by my side, not lunging & best of all, I could walk her with just one finger in the loop of the leads if I wanted to. Unbelievable & may I say, just marvelous. It took all the struggle out of it for both of us. She was happy & walking next to me of her own free will and I was so happy not to see her struggling, lunging & generally being miserable. She still likes to lunge a bit, so I switch from the conventional lead position to the "over the chest" method while we're still in motion & she's right back to being beside me without yanking, pulling, correcting & even without having to say one word to her except "Good Girl Tara" when she's in the right heeling position again.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by GSDs4Ever View Post
    I use a very quick & easy method taught to me by a Great Dane owner. Use either a long lead or 2 leads looped together. Arrange so that the lead is flopping on the dog's chest. Tara is an incredibly strong dog. When she was younger, she hated being at school, probably because her skin irritation & subsequent, relentless scratching was driving her bananas (poor love). None of the recommended suggestions worked. I was shown how to work the leads & got success very quickly. At first she reared up like a horse, tried backing out of the arrangement & was generally a tantrum thrower. Within 10 minutes though, there she was, walking happily by my side, not lunging & best of all, I could walk her with just one finger in the loop of the leads if I wanted to. Unbelievable & may I say, just marvelous. It took all the struggle out of it for both of us. She was happy & walking next to me of her own free will and I was so happy not to see her struggling, lunging & generally being miserable. She still likes to lunge a bit, so I switch from the conventional lead position to the "over the chest" method while we're still in motion & she's right back to being beside me without yanking, pulling, correcting & even without having to say one word to her except "Good Girl Tara" when she's in the right heeling position again.
    I might be an idiot for not quite understanding this method...but I would love to be able to try it on Sumo!!!!!

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