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Thread: Dog aggression

  1. #1
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    Default Dog aggression

    Hey everyone. I'm new to this forum so you'll have to bear with me! I've got a dog with some dog aggression problems. Wondering if anyone can give me some advice.

    I have a 2 year old lab x staffy. Ever since she was a puppy she has been very anxious and nervous around other dogs. She went to 3 different puppy schools when she was young, all 6 weeks each. I also used to walk her in an area where there were constantly other dogs around twice a day for one hour each.

    When I was walking her when she was young (I can't remember how old, but she'd had her immunisations), a woman approached us with her dog off lead (we were not in an off lead area, we were on my street). She asked if they could play and I told her I'd rather not, she replied with 'my dog isn't aggressive!' and before I could say anything else, she was right there and her dog attacked mine. Talk about a bad experience from the start.

    In the first puppy class she was about 8-10 weeks old. She would just run and hide anywhere she could find from the other puppies, she would even find places to hide in between bags of dog food at the vet! The vet nurse running the course got to the point where she would just carry her around the whole time and wouldn't let her interact with the other puppies.

    The second one had a small amount of interaction, but not a whole lot as there were a lot of dogs at this puppy class. Again my dog would just run and hide, and the vet nurses never told us anything about it.

    The third one was a puppy to dog class. She was probably 4 or 5 months old when she went to this. This was held outside and although there were other dogs around, our dogs were always required to be on lead and not to interact.

    One day at about 6 months we were walking in a park where dogs were required to be on lead. Someone had their dog off lead and it ran up to our dog and attacked her. I pulled it off of her but ever since this point she has been dog aggressive when on lead. Prior to this she wasn't aggressive, just anxious, she would just pull in the opposite direction to other dogs and she was also starting to get used to familiar dogs, walking up to them and even playing with them. But after this incident there was only aggression. The irony is that it was a small dog that attacked her, and she was a biggish dog at this point. When I asked the owner to put her dog on lead as her dog was attacking mine, she said that I should put a muzzle on my dog if she couldn't interact with other dogs, when her dog was biting my dog and my dog was cowering and trying to get away!

    At one year I moved in with a friend who has a German shepherd (female) about the same age. At first they were a bit snarly at each other and my dog would be aggressive toward the other dog if they were on lead. However, after a while, in the backyard and off lead the dogs interacted well with each other, playing and etc. to the point where we could leave them outside all day together.

    At this point (one year old) we took our dog to a dog training 'retreat' where we left her for 10 days and they were supposed to socialise her with other dogs. My dog didn't really have any other problems at this point except lead pulling (she also jumps on people to greet them in our house, but that's our fault because we chose not to train this out of her). She wasn't aggressive towards people or anything. $1200 later we picked her up and found she had had no interaction with other dogs and they hadn't even managed anything at all with her lead training. Apparently when she walks on lead with anyone except me she just drops and won't move! My partner included!

    I also found out after we picked her up that they used negative reinforcement at this place, which needless to say we weren't particularly happy about as she already had anxiety issues.

    She also got desexed just after this time, where she had a bad incident at the vet as she was pulling away not wanting to cooperate. The vet told us that due to this she 'may have been hit on the head' when they were trying to sedate her. For the next 2 weeks the whites of her eyes were filled with blood and she needed steroidal eye drops.

    After that we changed vets. She is now aggressive around any vet. She will not do anything until the vet comes near her. She doesn't care if they're in the room and will accept treats off of them. But as soon as the vet tries to get a look at her she becomes aggressive, snapping, snarling and growling. We have to muzzle her every time she goes to the vet now which doesn't help her anxiety, and as she is such a large dog (40kg) she still thrashes and we often need two people (usually me and my partner or a friend) to pin her down so the vet can look at her.. Again not really helping her anxiety! She has skin allergies so we are constantly at the vet as well.

    This also becomes a problem that we always have to let the vet know about before coming in, and we have to go to a consult room straight away so she can't see other dogs.

    She recently got sick with pancreatitis, in which we had two trips to the vet and also ended up at waves emergency vet in the same day, where she stayed over night and the vets found it very hard to assess her due to her aggressive nature.

    This nature occurs especially when she is locked in a confined space or on lead in a confined space with people she doesn't know. We keep her in the laundry at home with a run outside which she is fine in. We use a baby gate on the laundry door. If someone she doesn't know goes up to her or passes the gate she will lunge and bite.

    If I'm with her she will happily accept pats from the person, until the person tries to remove her hand and she snaps.

    She will be fine if she is off lead in the house or in the back yard with the person, will be excited to see them, jump on them and lick them etc. It seems to just happen when she's restricted.

    Recently my brother came to visit from Victoria, in which she acted as above. He stayed over for a week, and in this time he continually walked passed the door and basically trained her not to act in an aggressive manner toward him. So I'm convinced that I will be able to train this out of her if I can get a few people to come be my passers by!

    I get my license next week, in which case I will be going to the vet every one to two weeks to help socialise her with the vet.

    I'm sorry that this post is so long.. I didn't expect to go into half of my dogs life, but I thought it would help get an idea of her case.

    Anyway, since she is so dog aggressive I only walk her very early in the morning and during the middle of the day when I know there won't be any dogs around. I know that this isn't helping with her socialisation at all, which is why I'm posting here.
    I should also add that she walks fine with a halti on, doesn't pull at all.

    My major issue at this point is that I want to fix is the dog aggression. Hopefully the upcoming trips to the vet will desensitise her toward them.

    As I'm getting my license I would like to bring her to different areas, such as the beach and hiking/walking trails, but I feel like before I do this I definitely have to get rid of that dog aggression. I also know that if we can manage that every walk we go on will be much more pleasant for her.


    I sent the above information to a professional dog trainer, who was really nice but basically said our dog has a severe problem that can only be helped by going to a behavioural vet, if it can be helped at all. I disagree. I know my dog has bad anxiety around other dogs and people when on lead/restricted, but in other situations she doesn't have this problem. A good example is that currently we only ever get in the car to go the vet. She knows where she's going, and she's happy from getting into the car to getting into the exam room, wagging tail and all. She's fine with the vet if they kneel down and is happy to take treats off them. It's only when the vet tries to come near her she gets aggressive. She will not lunge at the vet, but she will snap and growl if they try to get near her.
    I believe that this is because she feels she can't get away - she's not acting out of aggression, she's more giving a sign not to come near her as she is unhappy with the situation.

    She also said that we should never have taken her to puppy class. She believes my dog inherited her fear from the Mother (I met the Mother, who let us pick up her babies and even pet her with a wagging tail so I'm not sure I believe this). I understand how putting her in puppy classes if she did have anxiety all along was the wrong thing to do, but no one told us this. And no one at any of the three puppy schools said anything about it. I thought taking her to puppy classes was the responsible thing to do.

    I don't think it's fair to say that there's a chance that she's too far gone to be treated at all. Her dog aggression is quite bad on lead, she will bark, pull and growl.

    My other problem is that this dog trainer said the initial consult will be $380 with her. I know from past experience that this is around the same amount of other accredited trainers. The behavioural vets BEGIN at $500 for the initial consult, with half hour phone consults being $75 and followups being more! I just graduated from a 3 and a half year degree at Uni and my job doesn't start until August - I can't afford anywhere near this for training.

    On top of that my dog has bad skin allergies which we've been struggling with for the last year. She's currently undergoing a food trial of kangaroo & sweet potato which we're spending roughly $100 a week on. It's a long process, and if that fails she will have to go in for allergy testing which is expensive, and she will need to be sedated for it due to her nature which will cost even more. We've also been in and out of the vet due to flare ups and the need for medication for months which has been expensive.

    This ontop of her recent pancreatitis and trip to the emergency vet which cost $2000, I just can't afford training in any form at the moment.

    I know the longer I leave it the harder it will be to fix.. I guess what I'm asking is: does anyone have any advice on how to deal with this? How to desensitise her?

    I've read about getting someone with a dog at a distance to walk passed her and by distracting her with treats/positive reinforcement and slowly decreasing the distance. This is about all I've found.

    Also I realise that from the beginning everything has been done wrong/everything bad has happened! From the puppy classes to her bad experiences at the vet and with the other dog. I understand this and my poor dog has suffered. I want to rectify this!


    Sorry this post is ridiculously long.. And thanks in advance for any advice.

  2. #2
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    I am no expert but I would suggest dealing with one thing at a time.
    You can choose to upskill on interpreting your dogs communication so you can recognise her calming signals amongst other things. I have recently come across some people who work on the relationship and interpreting my dogs signals and it has helped hugely in reactive situations. Dogs are not lab rats in controlled circumstances and the relationship with the person they are with is a huge factor in how they behave. Response and reward training is not the whole picture. My dog was reacting to some very subtle tensions in my body and getting anxious. I changed me and a problem behaviour is diminishing rapidly.
    Responsible trainers know that the owner needs training as much as the dog, good ones work with both.
    I like Turid Rugaas who has some good info http://en.turid-rugaas.no/calming-si...-survival.html
    Just thoughts, your poor dog has had a hard time, also spend some time looking through here Nekhbet ( behaviourist) and Newfsie give very sensible advice in many posts that relate to your issues. Depending on where you live there may be someone to be recommended for you.
    Last edited by farrview; 02-22-2015 at 11:02 PM.

  3. #3
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    I sent the above information to a professional dog trainer, who was really nice but basically said our dog has a severe problem that can only be helped by going to a behavioural vet, if it can be helped at all. I disagree.

    (snip)

    She's fine with the vet if they kneel down and is happy to take treats off them. It's only when the vet tries to come near her she gets aggressive. She will not lunge at the vet, but she will snap and growl if they try to get near her.
    This is exactly the kind of thing a vet behaviourist or a trainer skilled in "counter conditioning" can help with - where as a normal vet may not be able to do this. Even experienced vets can be crap at reading dog body language. I found this out the hard way just the other day - when I took my dog in for her vaccinations and I decided to go to my nearest vet - she'd seen before but I also asked for a check on her being lame.

    So the vet came in with an assistant who between them they pinned her down so she couldn't move or bite - which of course made her super anxious and uncomfortable when there was no need. She did put up with that with some dirty looks at the vet but she would have put up with the leg exam without being pinned. Same as the vax - it's the first time two people have held her for that too. And normally she's just fine - doesn't complain or dirty look about any of it.

    So I think that vet's dog handling skills were not as good as I thought.

    It's so sad you've compiled one bad dog decision on top of another to get where you are and now you think a vet - behaviourist can't help? I guess you've already had a bad experience with the puppy schools and the "dog retreat".

    Personally I think any place that does dog training that doesn't put equal time into training the human - is a complete waste of money. and then they've got to be training the right kind of way. Force is bad. Punishment is to be avoided tho it's good to limit unacceptable behaviour. Rewards for good behaviour is excellent. Rewards for bad behaviour can lead to trouble too (more bad behaviour).

    Your timing has to be good.

    I think you have a very sensitive dog that some trainers would call "weak nerved" ie everything is scary. And a lot of dogs in the park or the street will pick on a dog like that. Partly because scaredy dog fixes the new dog with a fearful stare - which looks exactly the same as an aggressive stare.

    And the only way to stop someone who thinks it's their right to let their dog interact with every other dog because "he's friendly" - is to tell them that your dog has the black plague and is just coming home from the vet to go into quarantine. Yelling PARVO might work. Don't bother trying to be polite.

    It happened to me this morning from two people I know (but didn't recognise immediately because I was trying to get away from their dog) they used to have a German shepherd and now they have a small poodle cross of exactly the sort that my dog hates because they charge into her face and jump all over her. And that's exactly what this one did - crossed the football oval despite me yelling at them to stop their dog - and their dog got bitten because it jumped on me and my dog - right on her face even tho I had her by the collar. I have a massive scratch from the poodle thing down my leg too.

    My dog loved their old dog but she hates the new one. The bizarre thing is - that they would never have let their old GSD as a puppy, do what this one did.

    There will always be people who do stupid things with their dogs and you have to protect your dog as best you can from them. The poodlex owners got yelled at by someone else as well who doesn't like being jumped on.

  4. #4
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    God how I hate the people who yell "he is friendly" and how many times have they wrecked a good dog......I would also go with a beahviourist. Your dog needs help

    I also love Turid Rugaas....but that means you have to gain the knowledge first and your dog needs help now and has to be seen in the flesh by someone, who can also see how you react and interact. And like was said by fairview that can make a huge difference. many dogs are not confident with their worried owners and when with confident people can give a completely differnt outcome. i also like to "read" how my dogs or otheres I train react and it often happens way before the actual meeting. I love positive reinforcement training and I also do a lot of BAT training (Google it) it my reactive new Rescue dogs, but my basis is Turid Rugaas and I also tend to manage my Pack in thehousehold with the Jan Fennel system...that really work with anxious dogs too. But again, your dog need help now, so it is easier to find someone who can guide you now....good luck
    Pets are forever

  5. #5
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    Perhaps if you say which state you are in there could be some suggestions about who you might see. In Western Australia I worked with a fantastic trainer who works very closely with a veterinary behaviourist. I also had a dud experience before I found her. Like you my initial thought was to be able to send my dog off somewhere and she would come back fixed.

    However what I discovered was this is a journey where I had to be very much involved. I had to try and learn everything I could about working with my fear aggressive dog and it was a lot of committment. This type of situation takes a lot of work and good guidance to come back from. The wrong guidance can only set you back and it is essential you find someone who can actually help you and your dog. I have to say that it is not any easy road.

    If you can invest in a couple of good sessions which is what I did, I was then able to do a lot of reading and I joined a few helpful groups who specifically dealt with dog aggression and was lucky enough to get some very good advice from some recognised professionals who were on the sites at the time and I could ask questions of. I also joined a local dog club where the other members wer very helpful and myself an another woman who was alo dealing with fear aggression would spend quite a few nights training our dogs on the edges of the formal training session at a distance where our dogs were below their anxiety threshold.

  6. #6
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    Default Dog aggression

    Thanks everyone for your replies!

    There's a lot that I'd like to comment on here! But I'm on my phone so just a few quick things.

    Farrview I read that article and it was interesting thanks. I'll have a look into the other things as well.

    I never said that a vet behaviourist wouldn't help. I said I disagreed with this trainers view that my dog might not be able to be helped.

    I never said I planned on getting a normal vet to train my dog either. I'm not even sure they do that? I said I would be taking my dog regularly to the vet to desensitise her and make it a positive experience for her. Our vet is actually amazing and they're so good with her. They've never mishandled her, pinned her down or forced her to do something she didn't want to. Which is probably why she's excited the whole way to the vet until she's cornered. I still believe her aggression is purely from being unable to get away.

    My problem with the vet behaviourist is that it's so expensive. As I said I just finished a 3 year degree. Students don't exactly have a lot of money and my full time employment starts in August and I can't afford that until then. Especially with her skin allergies which we've spent ridiculous amounts of money on/are spending ridiculous amounts of money on.

    And I recognise that taking her to that training place was bad now. The reason we took her there is because a friend of ours and her family who are very adamant German shepherd owners said they'd had excellent experiences with them. I'm aware I shouldn't have listened to them now. Just to clear that up.

    I also only believe in positive reinforcement which is why I was so mad that it wasn't disclosed to us that they use negative reinforcement.

    I am in Western Australia.

    So basically what I feel I've gained from this is, I can spend hundreds of dollars I don't have on dog training (not an option).
    I can not do anything and hope it doesn't get worse (which I'm sure it will) until I can afford it.
    Or put in the time to train her myself, making experiences with other dogs positive but this will be the wrong thing to do as I don't have professional advice on how to do it...
    Last edited by Saruh; 02-24-2015 at 03:33 PM.

  7. #7
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    Hi Saruh

    Trainer I've seen recommended for WA is
    Kathy Kopellis McLeod
    Kathy's Dog Training | Kathy Kopellis McLeod | Dog Behaviour Consultant | Dog Behaviour Problems | Dog Whisperer Perth | Dog Behaviour | Dog Trainers Perth

    She might be out of your price range for the moment but she should be able to recommend books, dvds, and maybe an agility dog club that could help. I say agility - because even tho you might not choose to do agility - a lot of the training is about desensitising each dog to other dogs, a lot of the participants have to deal with reactive dogs of their own and train them to train and compete and ignore the other dogs around them.

    You should be able to find some people there who understand your problem, have been through it and have loads of ideas about how to manage and counter condition for it.

    There are two related books - the codes for what they train are "look at that" (LAT) and "behavioural adjustment training" (BAT) which you can google.

    The LAT stuff which was developed specifically for agility training but applies to any reactive dog or scaredy dog is called
    Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt
    The BAT stuff is
    Behavior adjustment training : BAT for fear, frustration, and aggression in dogs by Grisha Stewart.

    With a naturally quick learning dog like a herding dog or a GSD - you need to be really really careful of your timing.

    I tried to counter condition my cattle dog to be nice to the lawn mower man but I got it wrong and now she is really really pleased to see him. He revs her up and she nips him. Completely unacceptable. Mistakes I made - We were too close to him and she was unable to be properly calm and I rewarded her excitement (oops) with food (double oops).

    So now she looks at him a bit like the way a cat looks at a mouse it's about to dispatch. I'm never going to be able to get sufficient distance when he's mowing at my house for my dog to be calm and I'm never going to be able to trust him to keep still and not rev her up - so they're never going to get to say hello again. But he's not likely to show up to dog training with a lawn mower.

    And I second Newfsie's suggestion of getting hold of Turid Rugaas "calming signals" book or dvd or both. Her accent is a bit difficult but the video of dogs moving and signalling is very good. My dog loved watching it.

    You can see how some dogs cannot make good signals or read other dogs' signals - and this can lead to trouble. Many puppy mill specials do not get enough time with their own mother or litter or other dogs to learn all the signals of how to be polite so they will ignore the "leave me alone" signals from other dogs or misread them. There's not a lot you can do about this apart leaving as fast as you can, or using the approaching inappropriate dog as a football and keeping your own dog under control as best you can.

    I find if I yell with any kind of angry tone at the owners or the approaching dog to try to get it to back off - this will send my dog over the top and she will help me. And then she will anticipate the need to "help me" send the other dog away and it looks like attack not self defence. Sometimes there's nothing I can do except limit her opportunity to defend herself which is bad all round. I praise her every time she reacts appropriately which I think helps.

    PS the BAT book is available from our South Australian State Library system - you might be able to request it for the WA system. A lot of great (and not so great) dog training info can be found in the SA library system as e books and hard copy.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 02-24-2015 at 04:22 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saruh View Post
    Thanks everyone for your replies!

    There's a lot that I'd like to comment on here! But I'm on my phone so just a few quick things.

    Farrview I read that article and it was interesting thanks. I'll have a look into the other things as well.

    I never said that a vet behaviourist wouldn't help. I said I disagreed with this trainers view that my dog might not be able to be helped.

    I never said I planned on getting a normal vet to train my dog either. I'm not even sure they do that? I said I would be taking my dog regularly to the vet to desensitise her and make it a positive experience for her. Our vet is actually amazing and they're so good with her. They've never mishandled her, pinned her down or forced her to do something she didn't want to. Which is probably why she's excited the whole way to the vet until she's cornered. I still believe her aggression is purely from being unable to get away.

    My problem with the vet behaviourist is that it's so expensive. As I said I just finished a 3 year degree. Students don't exactly have a lot of money and my full time employment starts in August and I can't afford that until then. Especially with her skin allergies which we've spent ridiculous amounts of money on/are spending ridiculous amounts of money on.

    And I recognise that taking her to that training place was bad now. The reason we took her there is because a friend of ours and her family who are very adamant German shepherd owners said they'd had excellent experiences with them. I'm aware I shouldn't have listened to them now. Just to clear that up.

    I also only believe in positive reinforcement which is why I was so mad that it wasn't disclosed to us that they use negative reinforcement.

    I am in Western Australia.

    So basically what I feel I've gained from this is, I can spend hundreds of dollars I don't have on dog training (not an option).
    I can not do anything and hope it doesn't get worse (which I'm sure it will) until I can afford it.
    Or put in the time to train her myself, making experiences with other dogs positive but this will be the wrong thing to do as I don't have professional advice on how to do it...
    Okay you are in Western Australia. Lots of really good dog clubs around and training options. A friend of mine is a brilliant dog trainer and has done some wonders with some aggressivive dogs. I can ask her what she could suggest as a good option that doesnt cost the earth or which dog clubs she could suggest might help you.

    Positive reinforcement is a technique that you need to learn how to use or it can go horribly wrong. What you are talking about not wanting to use is positive punishment, not negative reinforcement.

    You can actually do a lot of it yourself but you really do need some initial guidance and maybe join up with a dog club and go and watch at first and ask questions. Dog club subscriptions are annual and not very expensive.

    As to inheriting fear it could well be from the father. My dog was fearful and the mother seemd fine. I met the father sometime later when I took her back to the breeder and I happened by chance to meet the father and he was most definitely fearful of strangers. Whether that was from lack of socialisation of the father outside the kennel environment or genetic I dont know except that my dog had never been raised any differently from my other dogs and she was the only one that has ever had the problems she had so I had to assume a genetic component.

    My mother recently rescued a couple of dogs from a kennels and one has a very stable temperament and the other is still a basket case and the breeder was breeding from both of them. One had a totally unsuitable temperament to be breeding from. I totally insist on seeing both parents now and will only buy (apart from my rescues) from breeders I know well. I also choose my puppies carefully now and avoid nervous and anxious.

    I have had several stable dogs who were attacked at various points in their lives by other dogs with stupid owners and they bounced back really fast and were never aggressive because of it. I also have known dogs that have had the worst upbringing ever and were still not aggressive, one of mine was beaten and attacked as a puppy before he was rescued and he has grown from a terrified puppy into a very stable dog. I think his basic temperament has always been good though.

    Dog aggression is a serious stressful condition and takes considerable work to address. I do feel your pain having been down that path once before and the dog consumed more of my time than all the others put together. But I learnt so much. I didnt spend a lot of dollars apart from the initial consultation. I did join a dog club and I did do lots of reading and as I said beloged to specific groups dealing with these issues.

    I know Kathy Koppellis McCleod based in Perth used to run classes for 4 or so dogs which reduced the costs for the owners.

  9. #9

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    Or you could start by not forcing the dog to be in these situations .
    Learn to 'manage' a dog reactive dog ;try to always go where you think you and your pooch will be on its own,should you run into another dog just continue to walk on by , NO MATTER how feral he seems to get , just continue to walk on by without reacting yourself. It bloody hard,I can say this from experience . Sometimes its all we can do.

    Nehkbet is a great member to have a talk with
    GageDesign Pet Photography
    Site still in construction so will post link when it's finished.

  10. #10
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    Default Dog aggression

    Hey Kalacreek.

    That would be amazing thank you . I actually met the father as well and he seemed quite happy and unfearful as well. Wagging his tail the whole time!

    I'm not sure if I labelled my dog right. Maybe she's not so much aggressive as reactive? She reacts aggressively when on lead around other dogs but not when off lead. She also only reacts to people when she's cornered/unable to get away. In saying that she doesn't lunge/bark/growl or anything unless the person tries to go near her without her.. Permission? She also doesn't react to people when she's on lead unless in a confined space. In fact she runs up to people and slobbers all over them haha. That's why I think it's from her past experiences, because she was fine before a few instances where she was attacked on lead and has become fearful and reactive on lead (or the time she got desexed and had a bad experience).

    I'm happy to put in the time with her, she's obviously my best friend and I'm not working full time... It's just hard with lack of funds haha!

    ChoppaChop that's basically what I've been doing. Just taking her where/when I know there won't be other dogs, or shouldn't be. But I did want to start taking her to the beach/hiking where I'm concerned we will run into other dogs constantly which was my main issue. Also the fact that if I continue like this I'm concerned that the lack of socialisation will I only make her worse. But if that ends up being the best route for her that's what I'll have to continue doing.

    Thanks for all your advice everyone.



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