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Thread: Oh the shame, unpredictable evil hound scolding oodle x...

  1. #1
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    Default Oh the shame, unpredictable evil hound scolding oodle x...

    Hi all

    I don't know how to fix this because I don't see it coming... Well sometimes I see it coming and put evil hound on lead but this time I didn't.

    So there's this boxy oodle x at the park tonight and Frosty play bowed and sang at it but it just stared looking dopey and didn't come and say hi. They were both off lead at this time. The oodle x was with a man and a boy 15ish? and a girl... at the south football goal posts.

    So I called evil hound away, she came, good dog, and went back towards the north football goals. Normally we'd do laps around the whole park but I just felt - given their dog didn't look all that comfortable, and they were having a kick of the footy and I was having a hard time predicting where I could safely go around - I went back the other way.

    Then the man comes around the football having a bit of a run. Ok.

    I'm pretty much at the northern end and evil hound decides to check the playground for scraps - on the north side of the northern goals so I'm watching her and I don't really see the son approaching around the football oval, running with the oodle x, but evil hound does.

    And she doesn't like the way their oodle looks so - all of a sudden, she's right there scolding away, and even before she got there it lunged at her and started screaming and growling. And the son freaks out. And he's yelling at me to get my dog and he's trying to get my dog instead of dealing with his dog - who is turning circles around him, and my dog is turning circles around both of them.

    And like a proper cattle dog - being impossible to catch. What the hell is it about herding dogs in a slanging match - that means you can't bloody catch them. I eventually grab hold of her - fairly easy because she's wearing a harness - and drag her back and ask the son to check his dog for blood and puncture wounds.

    He's properly freaked out - brain gone completely mush, and he's blaming my dog and yelling at me instead of checking his dog. I need him to check. So eventually he decides his dog is ok - so I ask "it was all noise?". He's trying to find out if my dog always attacks other dogs - erm no. She hadn't attacked his dog at the other end of the park... And I'm trying to find out if they are regulars because I hadn't seen him before.

    But I think I'd seen the dad and maybe the dog before. And Frosty hadn't been polite then either but she also hadn't hurt the other dog. The other times, the oodlex had been extremely rude in dog body language and screamed when any other dog approached. I had a chat with the dad later and he says his dog often goes off like that. And I said my dog had a few bad experiences with oodle crosses but there are also some that she likes a lot, that she knows well.

    So I can't figure it out.

    I'm fine with putting her on lead every time a new oodle x comes into sight but I didn't see that one coming. Ie they were fine down the other end, I didn't expect them to start doing laps.

    I would like for her to either ignore or be polite to new dogs but I think it might mean we have to got more new parks more often. I suspect she thinks she owns this one. But I only have to go to a park a couple of times and she thinks she owns it. Sigh.

    I can't even trust her to do polite introductions with oodle crosses. It seems like she really wants to tell them off for being rude, pulling on lead, stepping on her, or being clumsy, or not grovelling enough for long enough...

    And I'm a bit worried that she will get reported for scolding and I will have to muzzle her on all walks and keep her on lead. Tho that would stop the foraging... Or worse, that she or the other dog will escalate to a proper bloody fight and I won't see it coming. She's usually 99 out of 100 times - the grovelliest friendliest dog with the most perfect dog manners. :S

  2. #2
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    Sounds like Frosty was reacting to the fact that the other dog was a dog not comfortable around other dogs. That can sometimes cause other potentially reactive dogs to react.

    When I visit the city I take my dogs to my Mums local dog walking oval. Having had a reactive dog myself in the past I have my scanning turned up full so I am aware of 99% of what is happening and where dogs are coming and going. The other thing I have on all my dogs is a rock solid recall. It can really pay off.

    Mine are all herding dogs and they are pretty good about recall, although one of my Border collies does have a problem with another particular male BC and this used to also make him naughty about his recall so I just had to manage that situation. I will come down on him hard if he even tries that now, but he is a super confident dog and can take correction and learn from it. I have to be pretty strong with him in certain situiations and indicate that there are somethings I wont tolerate. I obviously praise him when he does the right thing verbally and by playing with him. Or I play with him in certain situations so he finds that activity more attractive, but I have no hesitation in correcting him if I need to. Usually by a verbal dissaproval that all my dogs recognise and react to instantly and leashing him. They soon get the message.

    A behaviourist I once went to with the reactive dog I had told me that it was always usefull to have a strong verbal that the dog understood instantly that you meant business and did not approve in a bad situation. I didnt much care for this person advice but I have found that quite usefull at times.

    I think with Frosty that you are going to have to be more aware where other potential problem dogs are and manage accordingly. I found with my reactive dog that the hours I spent with treats and a clicker while out walking really payed off in unexpected situations.

    There is a very ill mannered boxer on my Mums oval and when they are there at the same time as me I keep a real good eye on where they are and keep plenty of separation.

    It is not easy but I think if you know you have a dog that can potentially react to a certain type of dog you just have to have your radar turned up and also work on that recall.

    Frosty obviously feels comfortable with dogs she knows, which is pretty common with reactive dogs. With dogs she doesnt know I would get her comfortable and happy to be focused on you and perhaps allow a very quick greet with a new dog and only ones that have the right initial body language. I allow very fleeting introductions at first with strange dogs before breaking it off. Unless I recognise that it is going well for both dogs.

    You just have to train the behaviour you want and dont let your dogs emotions escalate by being aware, there is no other way round it really. As I said I spent endless hours with a clicker and treats or other toys whatever the dog likes and was very aware of the environment.

  3. #3
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    only ones that have the right initial body language
    She's fine with those with proper doggy manners. It's the rude dogs she reacts to. Probably an accumulation of bad experiences and picking up on how I feel about people who can't control their dogs. But she can't pick up on my reaction to a dog if I don't see it first. Argh.

    And she's better behaved with most dogs that are bigger than her. She does her full on doggy greeting grovel, the other dog calms down and they have a polite greeting (or I call her away and she comes).

    Her recall could be a lot better. SG recallers starts up again soon - so I will try to do more of that. Though quite a bit of it needs other people to help with parts of it and I don't have that available. Other people are harder to train than dogs are.

    PS I've tried to get video of what she does for Nekhbet to look at but all I got was about 15 minutes of her ignoring my bowl of porrige on the front verandah - nobody went past or she didn't react to any of them. That's the most likely place she will go off at any other dog - including ones she knows - at our place.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 06-07-2014 at 12:24 PM.

  4. #4
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    Yes well that is not uncommon for them to react differently on home turf especially to random dogs and people passing by. Mine will react to passing dogs behind a fence but outside of that they are all pretty good. Although I always monitor them closely.

    At your place at least you can be prepared. I dont think there is anyway round it. Reactive dogs often just need to be managed so they dont get to reinforce their behaviour. Cattle dogs can have controlling personalities and one just has to train and manage accordingly. I have never had anyone help me train my dogs so you just need to be a bit creative. My reactive dog (cattle dog) was over the top reactive and I did all the work on her myself, including all her obedience training. I had to try and learn to read the situation as she was seeing it and factor in that there was a good dose of genetics in her problem as well. You also have to learn to understand how you are reacting to a situation. I try and be as calm as possible and be aware at what I might be transferring to my dogs. One person said to me that she thought my dogs were calm because I was a calm person. But really I am not so much in certain siruations, I just learnt to be that way around my reactive dog.

    If you are taking her out and about you will just have to tune in to your surroundings at a higher level and have some conditioned responses that you have trained Frosty in a range of surroundings. No one said it was going to be easy either! Usually an ongoing work in progress that happens everytime you take her out and about or dogs come to visit.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Hi all

    I don't know how to fix this because I don't see it coming... Well sometimes I see it coming and put evil hound on lead but this time I didn't.

    So there's this boxy oodle x at the park tonight and Frosty play bowed and sang at it but it just stared looking dopey and didn't come and say hi. They were both off lead at this time. The oodle x was with a man and a boy 15ish? and a girl... at the south football goal posts.

    So I called evil hound away, she came, good dog, and went back towards the north football goals. Normally we'd do laps around the whole park but I just felt - given their dog didn't look all that comfortable, and they were having a kick of the footy and I was having a hard time predicting where I could safely go around - I went back the other way.

    Then the man comes around the football having a bit of a run. Ok.

    I'm pretty much at the northern end and evil hound decides to check the playground for scraps - on the north side of the northern goals so I'm watching her and I don't really see the son approaching around the football oval, running with the oodle x, but evil hound does.

    And she doesn't like the way their oodle looks so - all of a sudden, she's right there scolding away, and even before she got there it lunged at her and started screaming and growling. And the son freaks out. And he's yelling at me to get my dog and he's trying to get my dog instead of dealing with his dog - who is turning circles around him, and my dog is turning circles around both of them.

    And like a proper cattle dog - being impossible to catch. What the hell is it about herding dogs in a slanging match - that means you can't bloody catch them. I eventually grab hold of her - fairly easy because she's wearing a harness - and drag her back and ask the son to check his dog for blood and puncture wounds.

    He's properly freaked out - brain gone completely mush, and he's blaming my dog and yelling at me instead of checking his dog. I need him to check. So eventually he decides his dog is ok - so I ask "it was all noise?". He's trying to find out if my dog always attacks other dogs - erm no. She hadn't attacked his dog at the other end of the park... And I'm trying to find out if they are regulars because I hadn't seen him before.

    But I think I'd seen the dad and maybe the dog before. And Frosty hadn't been polite then either but she also hadn't hurt the other dog. The other times, the oodlex had been extremely rude in dog body language and screamed when any other dog approached. I had a chat with the dad later and he says his dog often goes off like that. And I said my dog had a few bad experiences with oodle crosses but there are also some that she likes a lot, that she knows well.

    So I can't figure it out.

    I'm fine with putting her on lead every time a new oodle x comes into sight but I didn't see that one coming. Ie they were fine down the other end, I didn't expect them to start doing laps.

    I would like for her to either ignore or be polite to new dogs but I think it might mean we have to got more new parks more often. I suspect she thinks she owns this one. But I only have to go to a park a couple of times and she thinks she owns it. Sigh.

    I can't even trust her to do polite introductions with oodle crosses. It seems like she really wants to tell them off for being rude, pulling on lead, stepping on her, or being clumsy, or not grovelling enough for long enough...

    And I'm a bit worried that she will get reported for scolding and I will have to muzzle her on all walks and keep her on lead. Tho that would stop the foraging... Or worse, that she or the other dog will escalate to a proper bloody fight and I won't see it coming. She's usually 99 out of 100 times - the grovelliest friendliest dog with the most perfect dog manners. :S
    I feel your pain. There is a small female staffy about 3/4 Serena's size that comes to my off leash dog park. It is amazing and disconcerting the hate that Serena feels for this one dog. She will zero in on this dog from a ways off and then before I realise and put her on the lead, she is on top of that dog, growling, hackles up and baring teeth. Luckily no damage has ever occurred and I am very quick to get in there, pull her off and put her on the lead for the remainder of the walk. It was a pain in the ass last night because I had Bruno all excited at the commotion on his leash and then trying to get Serena off this poor dog. for some reason, wether the dog has annoyed Serena in the past or she just finds it annoying for no reason, I do not know. 99% of all other dogs there is no problem what so ever. Its got to a point that I check the park for that dog and if it is there I will have Serena on leash and take a wide birth.

  6. #6
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    tonight was pretty good except for when we first arrived and just before we left...

    When I first got to the park - as I came through the playground I spotted a yiros wrapper and some other rubbish and I was in the process of picking this stuff up and Frosty was on lead but dragging that way - not helping. Not like her - she LOVES yiros... So I turn around and there is this small child with an ancient cocker spaniel who is dragging the kid over to say hello to Frosty who is not making friendly come hither at all. At least I wouldn't go near a strange dog that was acting like her - and yet they kept approaching until I looked up and saw the dad - I think I looked angry - bag of rubbish in one hand, stroppy dog in the other - so he called the child and it and the dog went the other way - phew.

    So I wasn't about to let her off lead any time soon... but she didn't growl at anybody else. Which was good.

    I did notice - when I spotted a friend from afar - I'd tell her to go say hello and who-dat-dere? and she'd go check them out all wiggle butt friendly and happy - and I don't do that with people or dogs I don't know or think she might not be nice to.

    It's hard to think of her as an aggressive dog - because since puppyhood she has always had the best manners and is the most friendly dog I've ever owned. She can get fear aggressive dogs to say hello and play with her nicely. But as she's gotten older - she's gotten more erm, insistant about other dogs making proper polite greeting first or apologising immediately if they are rude and she tells them off. And not all dogs will do that. Especially not the puppy mill specials.

    So the dog she had a go at yesterday was 100% puppy mill special and by the owner's admission - not well socialized. So Frosty is not the only dog that has gotten into a yelling match with it. But Frosty's scolding other dogs is still not ok with me.

    Funny it used to be that people would stand back and say - let them sort it out - but some dogs are too stupid? to know when they're up against a dog they should concede to - eg one that can kill them. While it's all noise - not a problem theoretically but noise is how the bad stuff can start too. (except for the hunting dog that mistakes a small white fluffy for prey/rabbit).

    Today - I've got no idea why Frosty didn't like the cocker spaniel. She has a friend dog who looks almost the same.

    And it could be she just wants off lead too. Sigh. But there's no way I'm letting her off while she's being rude.

    Though that could be my fault too. there have been a couple of times where I've dropped the lead and let her deal with the rude dog. One time I got tripped up by another dog that went behind me at the same time that Frosty had a lunge - and it was drop the lead or crush the little trip me up dog. Frosty scolded the dog that she was looking at and it backed off so that ended ok I suppose but she got rewarded for doing it. Been taking the harness out to the park since then.

    And another time - where the problem dog was harrassing a friend's dog and the owner wasn't doing anything - so I let Frosty sort it. Again no harm done. She herded the other dog off and it got the message. There was no fighting back or screaming.

    So I guess we've had a bit of rehearsal of behaviour I don't want. Sigh. I'm a bit torn because when she drives other dogs off, that's often quite helpful. What's not so helpful is if the other dog is on lead, can't get away and is screaming and growling and trying to fight all at the same time.

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