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Thread: Training to cure dog aggression

  1. #31
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    to "own" a small space
    I'm trying to figure out what you (Bernie) mean by this. A small space like a crate? Why does it have to be owned - tho most dogs will own (defend) a space like that if they feel threatened. SG's method was to deal with the dog's feelings. Ie no reason to feel threatened and no need to act defensively. Calm is good.

    That's the basis of LAT (look at that) or BAT (behavioural adjustment training) (almost the same thing).

    As for managing - according to SG - managing is when you set things up to avoid the behaviour. Eg locking up the rubbish bin.
    Training - is when you teach the dog to do a new behaviour instead of the old undesirable ones. Eg training dog to stay on the designated near kitchen mat and keep out of the kitchen.

  2. #32
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    I do watch my dog like a hawk when out and about, Bernie. In a similar way to how I watched my toddler. Always aware of the surroundings and ready to react. But I definitely would rather not have to put her on lead every time another dog approaches and I worry about having visitors with dogs and the effort it may take to get Banjo to a point where she would stop being a bitch towards them.

    And I was /am apparently not good at interpreting my dog's body language in these situations, so there's an opportunity to learn here. But I clearly don't have a natural knack for it.

    If the 5 second rule alone works for walks, I'd be perfectly happy with that as a solution. But yes, it's what Hyacinth said. There is managing and there's fixing. Some dogs may react badly to others because somewhere along the line a negative association was enforced. You could be able to train a dog out of that by setting up situations that allow you to enforce positive associations and desensitise the dog. But I have to accept that it is unlikely Banjo will ever like or even voluntarily want to be near other dogs, unless she gets very slow and intensive introductions over a considerable period of time. The 5 second rule does teach her that it is perfectly ok to say hello and then turn away. So it should make her less tense about these chance encounters.

    Something the trainer said early in the consultation really annoyed me. She was showing me how to make my dog back up by walking up to her and said "You look like the kind of person who would walk around her dog when she is in the way". Well, I'm not. I demand respect and perfect obedience from my dogs because I think it would just be a bit crazy if I didn't. I am top dog at home and even though I may actually sometimes walk around my dog when I feel like it - because I don't believe in using that situation as a kind of dominance enforcer, if I want her to move, she'll move. Without arguing.

    It was a pretty big and telling assumption and it made me somewhat doubt her ability to tailor the training to suit our needs.
    Last edited by Beloz; 09-30-2013 at 07:44 AM.

  3. #33
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    Hiya Beloz.
    i think, when aggro is not predictable or frequent, its generally hard to capture to re-train, as its difficult to set it up to demo to a trainer.
    you say; And I was /am apparently not good at interpreting my dog's body language in these situations.
    If you consider how infrequent this behaviour has occurred, why wouldnt you be unable to spot it, its a new behaviour! If it were something she did led down when approached, you'd of spotted it, as she lays down a LOT. Whereas the aggressor role is new.

    And i have a friend that appears to control her horse through telepathy. She is not, she's 'whispering' reading the body language, that i miss, despite intense vigilance to try to see it. This stuff is fleeting! I have to use a video to capture what my dogs are up to, and play it back in slow motion.
    You are trying to do all this LIVE! and you think as a pet owner,in that situation, you should know how to read that your dog is about to throw a new behaviour? how?

    You are top dog. For as long as your dog considers you so. And thinking dogs, will disobey, if they 'think' you have assessed a situation wrong.

    I am so in charge of Bernie, yet it was Bernie who knocked me to the ground in 2012, to get to the malamute trying to bite me, he really did put his life on the line and defended me, despite me telling him to stay!. Who was top dog then? er, not me.


    re:But I definitely would rather not have to put her on lead every time another dog approaches - Tough, suck it up. For now. Till YOU are confident once more. which wont take long i'll wager!

    We dont always get the dog we want, but we often get the dog we need.

  4. #34
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    when aggro is not predictable or frequent, its generally hard to capture to re-train, as its difficult to set it up to demo to a trainer.
    This is the problem I have too. And sometimes my dog reacts based on my reaction, and I didn't even know she spotted me frowning (I mostly frown or have zero expression on my face).

  5. #35
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    Well, she met about 8 or so other dogs today and not even a raised lip! I was all ready to do the 5 second recall and to pop her on the lead and do the exercises to make her stop tensing up, etc. But she was almost back to how she used to be before I saw the first signs of grumpiness and there was only one encounter today that made me slightly worried. That was kind of the only time got an opportunity to call her because she lingered. I watched in amazement as she invited the 1yo dane cross to a game of chasies. And how she enjoyed the old "ganging up on the smallest" with these dogs she'd never met before. Which was the only time I felt it necessary to put her on the lead.

    And if a dog ever goes for me, I don't think I'd be able to view my dog defending me as a failure. And I can't see how I can prevent her wanting to do that either because my dog's not stupid. She knows she's much better at that kind of stuff. I don't growl, I don't bite and my teeth are tiny compared to hers.

    I never claimed to have total control over her in every situation either. I strongly doubt that anyone, except those with dogs trained for war or similar maybe, can claim they have. I also don't count on my dog seeing me as top dog as her motivation to obey commands. I count on the work I put into conditioning her to respond to cues in a certain way. And you can test this in many situations to assess how strong that conditioned response is, but in the end you won't know how they will react in the most extreme circumstances that you can't replicate for training. And sometimes it will turn out that their arousal overrides any conditioning. Nothing much to do with them knowing who the pack leader is, I reckon. Unless those situations occur more often than not maybe? Not sure...

    Anywho, there very well may be something in my communication to her that makes her think that most other dogs pose a threat to me. And it's up to me to show her otherwise now. When it occurs. I may not get a chance now, it seems!

  6. #36
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    i sincerely hope that you never get the chance Beloz.
    looks like you may of nipped this in the bud as a emerging behaviour set. Before it became a conditioned response.

    i am very nervous when dogs get together here, as im surrounded by small white fluffies who are not trained. and a nemesis of a woman with 3 bc's, 2 of which are aggressive, and the woman, geez the woman makes me want to be aggressive! I struggle controlling myself, my voice, my stance, as every fibre of my being wants to slap her face and stop her crying/screaming! I wish it were you with the 3 bc's any day!

    there has never been any real trouble. It just old memories of aggressive dog i had loom in my head, that due to my aggressive desire to bonk the woman over the head, the dogs will do something for me. on my behalf so to speak.

    Im glad banjo still gets to play

  7. #37
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    First post I ever deleted, because.
    Last edited by Beloz; 10-03-2013 at 06:17 AM.

  8. #38

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    I was really hoping that someone else was going to give a comment or an answer to your post above !

    Well here goes - I really hope that the above post leads to a change in attitude from you - that will bode well for the future for you and Banjo – and of course your daughter and your foster pup. New home and new beginnings and all that !

    This needs to happen to allow you to be the person and foster carer that you would like to be.

    Now - I would like to make something very clear ! You have made a few comments before – such as - ‘I know you don’t like me’ – pftttttt – have you not heard of the term – ‘projecting your feelings’ – well - here is a link:

    Urban Dictionary: projection

    Also sorry – but you don’t pass the 3 F Rule for me:

    ‘Remember the 3 F rule: If you're not f**king me, feeding me or financing me, then your personal opinions and thoughts about me really are not of any concern to me !’

    This is the main problem with forums – things can get rather personal – people really forget that we are relying on the written word and that is what we should be focusing on and commenting on ! It is the game that is being played that is important (the words) and not the player !

    I have read a few times on this forum of Banjo hiding under the bed and not wanting anything to do with you. – If any of my pups over the years reacted like that to me I would have been horrified and totally mortified – and I would have accepted the fact - that the problem was totally with me !

    Regardless of what we think - the reaction of our pups to us and other situations and people - is a reflection on us as owners and how we treat and train them. There is no getting away from this idea or fact !

    You made me -.jpg

    Anger is a total waste of time and energy and achieves absolutely nothing- other than heartache for the owner of the anger ! A couple of quotes:

    ‘How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it. Marcus Aurelius

    Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. Buddha

    Then I read this on another thread from you – projection again ? – particularly the second sentence ? I really thought that the comment you made was not warranted – but no Mods picked it up!

    This new member had been taking on board comments – hence all the different questions – but regardless !

    ‘Oh FFS. I'm really getting annoyed about this. How on earth do you expect to be able to care for a giant breed dog when you can't even pay for the adoption fee?

    None of the advice that has been given to you here by experienced dog owners seems to have gotten through at all.’
    From my time on this forum, there has been a lot of really good advice given from other members of this forum to you, about specific questions that you have asked in the past – maybe the above comment you made you should take note of.

    Hopefully your above post means that you are looking for other ways of tackling your problems !

    Remember:

    Making choices _n.jpg

    Respect .jpg

    Beloz – you have offered a lot of really good advice on this forum – maybe now it has be a case of ‘what I do – not what I say !’ You do have a sense of humour – so let’s see more of it - but more importantly the smiles and laughter need to be seen by those closest to you !

    To be worthy of a dog .jpg

    smiley-eatdrink004.gif

  9. #39
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    Thanks.
    Last edited by Beloz; 10-02-2013 at 08:11 PM.

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