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Thread: Trainingresistant BC?

  1. #11
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    Ps beware of the "back chaining" dog.

    Ie the one that knows "sit" perfectly well but also has figured out that if she's deaf the first time you say it, and then eventually does a good job, she's more likely to get a good treat (oops).

    PPS - you might find your dog learns hand signals more reliably than verbal ones. A lot of dogs especially the motion sensitive ones like herding dogs will. And also dogs that are a bit deaf (some herding breeds are prone to deafness).

  2. #12
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    The backflop... Sorry. My English! I didn't make her flop onto her back. She flops onto her back if I insist on something she won't do. It goes something like I ask her to 'sit' she look the other way, I say 'sit' again - this time a little louder - she licks her lips looks the other way and if I say 'sit' again maybe raising my voice a little or coming a step closer... she flops onto her back.

    I'm sure she doesn't do it to hog treats because if she is not in a state to 'sit' she won't take any treats either. But even if she takes them she rarely just eats it. She often has this little ritual to go through first. She'll sniff it for a while, then take it and carry it away a few steps. Drop it, sniff it again and push it around for a while. Nibble on it, push it around some more and then - maybe - she'll eat it. Maybe. This is a tiny piece of liver treat I'm talking about. I know she likes those. And all the while I'm holding onto Nero's collar to stop him from scoffing down her treat.

    At home her sits are getting pretty good. Since last week (ho-hum..) she can sit in the driveway. I have repeated it these last days whenever we walked down and she is good. It seems to have clicked that she needs to sit so I can put on the lead. Next step is the end of the driveway and the street and then the world!! It's just so damn slow. And then we'll go through the same stuff when we learn 'drop'...

    And making her do something for the ball... I really have to take a video sometime how she reacts when I pull out the ball... no point talking to her because she doesn't even see me. It's a kind of meltdown she goes into. E.g. when one of us throws the ball for Nero in the garden and she is inside. She gets so hysteric that she forgets about the door - or the doggy door - and just stands in front of the window screaming (yes screaming) on top of her lungs. I have to literally drag her to the front door so she remembers how to get out of the house. Maybe not so smart after all...

  3. #13
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    She is just very anxious and gets herself in such a state that she cant learn or think and just reacts, sounds like just the process of learning causes her anxiety. I wonder if she has ever been hit or thrown as a pup so as to cause some minor brain damage? It is almost like you are going to have to work on rewiring her brain. This is how I thought of it with my reactive dog. Although my dog could learn perfectly well when she wasnt over stimulated, a meltdown would take her out of my reach.

    Just on deafness - I take it her hearing is good?
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 09-22-2013 at 10:05 AM.

  4. #14
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    I don't repeat cues when I'm training. If my dog doesn't respond to a cue and I am sure she understands it, I move away from her, then call her to me and try again. It is totally her choice whether she chooses to work for that treat or chooses to miss out. I think this increases food drive too.

    The only exception is recall. I will call twice, but only twice when she is a fair distance away just in case my voice didn't travel that far. After the second time, I will start heading towards her and she knows she stuffed up and will go on lead. This is also the only situation when there is a consequence for not doing as asked that goes beyond not getting a reward.

  5. #15
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    Her hearing is fine. I'm sure about that because the sound of OHs car coming up the driveway sends her straight into the zone. And if I talk with Nero she'll come running from another room thinking little miss busy body might miss something interesting.

  6. #16
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    I say 'sit' again maybe raising my voice a little or coming a step closer... she flops onto her back.
    I'd read this as she doesn't really understand what you want her to do even though she does in other contexts or situations (sometimes) and she really doesn't want you to be mad at her (volunteering the roll over because that's supposed to appease upset dogs like you). Ie she's over reacting. My dog does this when my brother asks her not to lick him. He's going "stop", "STOP", N O !!! and she's on her back like floppy jelly. And then we crack up and it's all for nothing. She licks him more. I got further using the word "turkey" to test her understanding of her permission to eat dinner word "on special"... and then I changed the test word to my brother's name - which also pissed him off but made the rest of us laugh. "Turkey" works better.

    I don't think I'd let her keep the treat to play with. She eats it or I take it away. But also there is a scale of treat values for my dog there's - going up from least worthy to most worthy...
    kibble, mini goodos, dried treats like liver or roo jerky, somebody else's treats (including the kibble I just handed them), sardines, cheese, metwurst, roast chicken, fresh cooked sausage, popcorn, potato crisps, and OMG I can't think straight cos you have YIROS...

    Some treats - I have to put them in the next room to work with her. She will run a kilometre down the beach and mug the lady carrying roast chicken for dog treats...

    Sometimes - it's just the possibility that some other dog might get the treat that ups my dog's enthusiasm for them. Ie if she doesn't eat the traet, the other dog gets it. or in the case of the last three on my list and the metwurst, if she doesn't eat it, I will. So she feels that more keenly than if I just put the treat away for later.

    There is this "threshold" line of dog is excited but can still pay attention to you, and the dog goes over the top "TAR" or too aroused to respond - well more like TATR but TAR sounds better. And describes "stuck" better. The line is something you can move - bit by bit by working on the edge of it. If the dog goes TAR - you back off a bit, put the ball out of range (sight/smell), and try again.

    It would be interesting to go out somewhere you have a lot of room, and see how far the ball needs to be from her (with help from OH) before she can pay attention to you again. Or start with it far away and see how close the ball can be before she stops being able to pay attention to you.

    You might find these are two different distances. And they will change over time - if you work close to the edge of them. Ie work out where the dog loses it, step back until the dog is paying attention again, and do your training exercise there, five repeats/attempts then release to go play with the BALL - so EXCITING...

    And you gradually decrease the average distance so not always closer but a sort of dance of a couple of steps forward, one step back, couple more... etc.

    PS hand signals are not just for deaf dogs. Dogs generally just find them easier to learn, remember and understand.

  7. #17
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    You know, maybe. Maybe. Something really klicked. I was pretty thrilled about her sitting in our driveway and when we were out today I asked her to sit because I wanted to put her back on the lead. It was a new path, so completely foreign environment. But she did it! It took her a second or so to process the command. For a moment she stared at me and I could see her thinking really, really hard and then... after a pause... she sat down!!

  8. #18

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    'margoo' - the only question I can ask is - what was your body language like and your voice pitch ? If she hesitated - then something was not quite right !

    But heaps of kudos to you - things are going really well !

    HaHa - I remember your horror about how long things can take with our pups - particularly with me saying it took me 6 months to get through to Riley !
    Keep up the good work !
    smiley-eatdrink004.gif




  9. #19
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    I know I really have to watch my body language with this one! This morning we had a similar situation. I asked her to sit. She hesitated looked away, looked back at me. So I took a little step back and said it again in exactly the same way, quietly and also giving my hand signal... and she sat down again. Right away!


    Hehe... yes. I was horrified about the six months. And now look at me. One year later! She is training me well, the poor thing is probably getting a little frustrated at times how slowly I'm picking it up though!
    Last edited by margoo; 09-23-2013 at 09:38 AM.

  10. #20

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    'margoo' - you will get there ! Teamwork takes time - but is so worth it !

    I found with Riley that I had to soften my voice so much - it became almost a whisper. If I raised my voice at all - I got nothing out of him - other than him giving me the finger !
    He has now progressed to giving me a very soft grrrrrrr - when I am not performing well enough for him !

    It also helps to find the kid/idiot in yourself and smile alot ! Learn to play with the pup !
    You are doing well and keep up your great team building exercises !
    smiley-eatdrink004.gif

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