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Thread: Training without punishment

  1. #1

    Default Training without punishment

    I am a positive training methods advocate and found this poster which I really think spells it out nicely.
    Last edited by Nev Allen; 04-18-2013 at 09:17 AM.
    Nev Allen
    Border River Pet Resort

  2. #2
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    melbourne australia
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    Default

    I cant get the link to work Nev?

  3. #3

    Default

    Hows that bernie.

    And this is why I despise any form of choker chain.

    Nev Allen
    Border River Pet Resort

  4. #4
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    Default

    I train my dogs with reward and have never had to use any form of collar other than a flat one. However in experienced hands and by people who understand the subtleties of how a dog learns they could use those types of collars without any damage to the dog. It takes very experienced hands though.

    Unfortunately inexperienced people use those types of collars as a last resort and out of frustration, or they are people who are happy to inflict force to try and control a dog in lieu of proper training. These tend to be be in the majority and you see the terrible results like in your photo. How anyone could inflict that type of damage on a dog and think that what they are doing is working is beyond me.

  5. #5
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    I hate how my dog club asks beginners to use choke chains (not prong collars - eek - that one must have been left on all the time).

    But the poster picture isn't exactly accurate depending how you define "punishment".

    My dog acts like I've beaten her with a stick when I withhold a reward or tell her she's not getting one (non reward marker) or stop her from counter surfing (collar grab).

    There is no such thing as all positive (cos sometimes the dog doesn't get the reward, or the dog goes in the crate when it's been counter surfing)...

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I hate how my dog club asks beginners to use choke chains (not prong collars - eek - that one must have been left on all the time).

    But the poster picture isn't exactly accurate depending how you define "punishment".

    My dog acts like I've beaten her with a stick when I withhold a reward or tell her she's not getting one (non reward marker) or stop her from counter surfing (collar grab).

    There is no such thing as all positive (cos sometimes the dog doesn't get the reward, or the dog goes in the crate when it's been counter surfing)...
    I cant understand why a beginner would be asked to use a choke chain first up. If the club specialised in training people in the art of correct use of a choke chain that could be different. If they just want beginners to wear them because they are afraid that they wont be able to control their dogs then that is just plain weird.

    None of the clubs I have ever trained at start with choke chains and we have seen many an unruly dog come through and learn perfectly fine in a flat collar.

    I think of positive training as training that use a lot of positive reinforcement. So reinforce heavily the behaviours you want and set the dog up to achieve success more often than failure. From what I can see Sylvia Trkman is probably a good example I can think of as a positve trainer with stunning succes on the world agility circuit. She is all about lots of reward and play and having fun, developing team work with her dogs.

  7. #7
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    That pinch collar is left on all the time, and has been sharpened on its prongs.
    Not what any person who uses prongs would advocate.

    I dont believe positive only training is possible, because of hyacynth's point. My dogs also behave like ive beaten them with a stick, when i use a certain tone coz im annoyed with them.
    and as tone of voice is so automatic and unconcious most of the time, they respond to my intonations acutely.
    hence my cruel words of "oh no, who did this"
    = kids saying "not me"
    dogs skulking off to their beds and trying to be as small as they can, to avoid the aversion that has been applied to my kids for goodness sakes.

    But in general, i very much support positive training methods, i just dont have a issue with using aversives with some dogs, some times conciously.
    Last edited by bernie; 04-19-2013 at 06:25 AM.

  8. #8

    Default

    Choker chains in the right hands are fine, what I can't stand to see is people who haven't taught their dogs to heal being hauled down the street by a dog on a chain struggling to breathe. What kind of damage is that doing to that poor dogs throat.

  9. #9
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    Our dog club is supposed to teach people how to use choke chains correctly but there is not enough focus on the release. Ie to reward the dog - you've got to let the damn thing loose.

    One of our old dog training instructors - recently retired to do other things - nice well intentioned bloke but I didn't agree with a lot of his methods - liked the choke chain because if he was holding a dog for an owner who had gone in the clubrooms (no dogs), and the dog decided to leave - the dog cannot slip out of a choke chain. Not ideal way to sort the situation.

    We really ought to have crate training, and a few spare crates (with sheets to cover them if necessary) around. People are not allowed to tie their dogs to the fence around the clubrooms at obedience training - cos that causes other problems. They do during agility class - tho I don't know why it's allowed. Those dogs are usually very well trained to stay put when their owner leaves them so not as many problems.

  10. #10
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    Oh the propaganda, love it.

    #1 - you can train wild animals to do anything .... when you withold their food and the only way to get it is to comply. You can also NOT make them comply. Starving is slightly illegal, so if that elephant decides to trample you instead of lift it's foot there is nothing the zoo keepers can do but run for their lives. Ask any zoo keeper, they never trust the animals 100% because there is no proofing and trust.

    As for that photo about the prong collar ... here's the injury from a lovely, safe, cuddly wuddly harness ...

    149285_483169688728_4074352_n.jpg

    It's humans that cause the problems, not the equipment. Correction chains, prongs and e-collars have saved many a dog from being dumped or put to sleep. I train dogs and for many 'positive' people (and that includes apparent 'professionals') apparently death is an acceptable option if your methods cannot change the dogs behaviour ... which of course you CANNOT do because you have limited yourself so severely. Otherwise medicate the poor animal to the eyeballs and because it's now in a life long stupor thats better then giving it a couple of corrections.

    Call me what you want, I break myself helping dogs so their owners can walk them, get streams of them that have been deemed 'only good to be put to sleep' and turn them around. If you're going to have a dig at people like me and others I know because we don't use positive only then have a good hard think. I'm absolutely sick of it.

    Hyacinth is right - with positive reinforcement must come negative punishment (removal of the good thing) in order to change the behavior. Many people who practice positive only put strong parameters on their dogs and cannot proof them. Some use deprivation of socialisation, food, attention etc in order to make the 'reward' more valuable to the dog. WHen that fails and you have no tools to help you, shout at the dog or get a fresh one. It's not the sunshine and rainbows you think it is.

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