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Thread: Training without punishment

  1. #31
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    You have not read one word I wrote did you Nev.

    Nev is right positive training is preferred
    Positive reinforcement is the preferred method of encouraging and cementing a wanted behavior - no one will disagree with that no matter what they train. It's the quickest and easiest way. You have to reinforce in order to keep a behavior expressing. You cannot 'correct' a dog into providing many behaviors unless you work in pure Negative reinforcement and that can backfire big time on you and does not always make for a happy dog. The problem is not always the expression of a behavior, that's the easy bit. It's the prevention of mistakes, the proofing of behaviors and the prevention of potentially dangerous or antisocial behaviors in a manner that you trust 110%. You cannot do all of that with positive reinforcement only on every dog and that is a fact.

    By the way why was that woman jamming the prong into her spine? She might as well have beat herself about the head with a brick for all the 'unbiased experimental opinion' she provided in that piece. Please, educate me yourself in the 'safer' ways to say, control a human aggressive dog that is wanting to grab you and a correction chain does nothing but choke it which it works through. What would you do?
    Last edited by Nekhbet; 05-07-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    Please, educate me yourself in the 'safer' ways to say, control a human aggressive dog that is wanting to grab you and a correction chain does nothing but choke it which it works through. What would you do?
    I am not going to say I am in any way an expert in working with extremely difficult dogs and I have had no first hand experiance in that field, and that is simply because I have never had the need nor opportunity to get involved with that big a problem and there are always better qualified people to refer the dog to.

    The theory is all about desensitization and reducing stress so that the dog will relax in your presence. The reason it is human aggressive in the first place is probably because it was hammered by one. Regaining such a dogs confidence will never be gained by employing physical corrections.

    I have however on numerous occasions been able to work a highly excited/stressed dog down to a level where it was no longer snapping, growling, hackles down, all through quiet, patient talking, whilst working through stress reduction body language and offering of a variety of treats. I have not had to resort to any form of physical correction in the last 17 years.

    In my business it is reasonable to expect to see a few dogs that do not want to know you. They are in a strange environment, their own people are not there, and here a stranger walks into his room and wants to put a leash on him. Had an Arab in last month like that and it took me 2 days to gain his confidence, but I got there without force.
    Nev Allen
    Border River Pet Resort

  3. #33
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    My GSD Chloe now 13 mths is a real handful...but will do nearly anything for a treatie.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  4. #34
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    I am not going to say I am in any way an expert in working with extremely difficult dogs and I have had no first hand experiance in that field, and that is simply because I have never had the need nor opportunity to get involved with that big a problem and there are always better qualified people to refer the dog to.
    So you have no answers to my questions, but you're posting things and telling me I can do things in better ways. Not how to do it, but that I'm simply wrong and I should change.

    Also since you do not know how I train why do you assume everything I do is with force? As for the Bull Arab, why would you try and force a standoffish dog? It would shy away or bite you. Why is training one side or another with positive people ... I use corrective equipment so I must just force dogs to do everything? Really?

    The theory is all about desensitization and reducing stress so that the dog will relax in your presence. The reason it is human aggressive in the first place is probably because it was hammered by one. Regaining such a dogs confidence will never be gained by employing physical corrections.
    So you're employing the reasoning is that all reactive/aggressive etc dogs are like that through a fear of the object and must have had a bad experience by them? I'm not talking about a dogs confidence, I'm talking about creating a safe dog that can actually be taken out into public in order to enjoy its life to the full. And most desperate owners do not have time for the long road particularly those that have had incidents before. They can't and wont hear a 6 month time frame of possible improvement, the council wont either.

    The theory is about avoiding conflict because there is no way to correct or proof against the beahvior, that is why it is so gradual and you cannot do it in a timely fashion, proofed. You're so limited because all you can do is wait for the dog to express the correct behavior. If the dog does not want the reward you cannot make it settle and you cannot train it. It's why some of these dogs actually increase their threshold of behavior.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    Also since you do not know how I train why do you assume everything I do is with force? As for the Bull Arab, why would you try and force a standoffish dog? It would shy away or bite you. Why is training one side or another with positive people ... I use corrective equipment so I must just force dogs to do everything? Really?
    I think that the reason people think this is that this is how they are often used by people who think they will shortcut the need to train the dog. They use them to force the dog to obey through pain and fear but do not actualy achieve a trained dog.

    I met a trainer who used this equipment and she showed me how she used correction in her training and it surprised me that we had a similar fundamental understanding of how dogs learn. I would not call her methods forcefull at all. Not the way I prefer to train but effective and well trained happy dogs were the result. The tools can be used with the lightest touch to be effective.

    With problem dogs I think the solution lies in the assessment of the dog and the owner to come to what is going to be the most effective method. People seeking help are unlikely to want to cause pain and fear in their dog.

    My problem dog was genetically fearfull it had nothing to do with being ill treated. In many cases problem dogs are a result of temperament and/ or lack of fundamental training, socialisation etc.. One of my rescue dogs was ill treated and came to me fearful of humans, but he has a fundamentally stable temperament and wasnt hard to sort out. My genetically fearful dog was another matter, she had never been ill treated but was on the rapid road to basket case.

    Desensitisation was definitely the best method for my little basket case, but it took a lot of committmennt and an understanding of how it worked, which I can imagine a lot of people may not be prepared for. Could she have been helped another way, I dont know, I think for her it was the best way forward because of what she was and because she was incredibly motivated by food and the clicker. Had she lacked that motivation I would have had to find another way.

    I personally like training with reward and all my dogs are extremely motivated by working this way. It suits my relationship with them. However am not adverse to correction if it is needed, which is rare as they are super keen to offer behaviors, it is how I teach them form puppies. With dogs that come as problems, I would be open to what was going to work effectively. I would start the way I know best and if I realised it wasnt working I would seek to learn other ways to find the best way forward for that dog.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 05-10-2013 at 08:48 PM.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    So you have no answers to my questions, but you're posting things and telling me I can do things in better ways. Not how to do it, but that I'm simply wrong and I should change..
    I am simply trying to say that you can train any animal to do anything without the use of physical punishment or force. Using a pinch or spike collar is using a physical punishment in my book.

    Also since you do not know how I train why do you assume everything I do is with force? As for the Bull Arab, why would you try and force a standoffish dog? It would shy away or bite you. Why is training one side or another with positive people ... I use corrective equipment so I must just force dogs to do everything? Really?
    My comments have not been directed at you specifically so I am sorry you seem to be taking this personally. But you are right. I do not know how you train your clients dogs but if you do use choke/pinch/spike collars then, yes, I do think there are safer and better ways.

    So you're employing the reasoning is that all reactive/aggressive etc dogs are like that through a fear of the object and must have had a bad experience by them? I'm not talking about a dogs confidence, I'm talking about creating a safe dog that can actually be taken out into public in order to enjoy its life to the full. And most desperate owners do not have time for the long road particularly those that have had incidents before. They can't and wont hear a 6 month time frame of possible improvement, the council wont either
    As an instructor, you know you need to first get the dog to accept instruction from you. You have to work to win his confidence. Once you have that you can start working on his problem. Sure you can bring a dog around by using a combination of force and positive methods in a shorter time than positive rewards only but I believe the bond between owner and dog will be stronger and more rewarding in the long run, if the dog can totally trust the owner not to hurt him.

    If that takes longer then so be it.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 05-11-2013 at 08:05 PM. Reason: fix the quote - remember the backslash at the front of the end quote
    Nev Allen
    Border River Pet Resort

  7. #37
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    Hi all

    I can see we're not going to agree here - and I think that's ok.

    I've seen Steve Courtney working with a prong collar. I'm not sure if he really needed the prong collar for what he used it (dog aggressive dog), but it worked really really fast and he was really really gentle with it, and he talked the owner through all the moves - after he'd taught the dog how to escape the unpleasant sensation (negative reinforcement?).

    Personally - I wouldn't use it. But my dog isn't attacking everything in sight. She randomly tells off the occasional rude dog (still haven't figured that one out). She was good tonight given the same sort of triggers that sometimes set her off. Tonight she met a new poodle pulling on the end of the lead and trying to hump other dogs. Sometimes she will charge these dogs and scold them. And most of the time she doesn't.

  8. #38
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    I can agree to disagree if someone can show me how there is a better way and I'm happy to be practically proven wrong. But all I'm getting is unproven blanket statements.

    I am simply trying to say that you can train any animal to do anything without the use of physical punishment or force. Using a pinch or spike collar is using a physical punishment in my book.
    I am not saying that in some circumstances they are not physical punishment. But I'm saying your statement there is wrong. You cannot possibly make that blanket statement because it's proven to not be the case time and again.

    As an instructor, you know you need to first get the dog to accept instruction from you. You have to work to win his confidence. Once you have that you can start working on his problem. Sure you can bring a dog around by using a combination of force and positive methods in a shorter time than positive rewards only but I believe the bond between owner and dog will be stronger and more rewarding in the long run, if the dog can totally trust the owner not to hurt him.
    Owners are not allowed to tell of their dogs in my classes. Nothing but sunshine and roses is to be uttered from their mouths because nagging, yelling and negativity causes distrust and distraction. The corrective equipment is not associated with the owner if used correctly, which is not difficult. Most of the times when you see corrective equipment used badly its combined with an owner acting in a negative manner towards the dog, so the dog takes the lesser of the two evils it's provided with - the corrective device. The point of the corrective equipment is in fact to make you seem even higher in value in some instances and can help with the bond immensely. I dont have dogs shying from their owners and I wont let anyone do it to their dog. Bonds are stronger because I teach people how to be clear, fair and concise with what they convey to the dog and that is what makes the difference. A dog that understands what you are conveying is immediately happier and more willing to work for you then a confused one - and you can confuse one just as quickly with positive only as you can with corrective.

  9. #39
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    @ nehbet
    "... and you can confuse one just as quickly with positive only as you can with corrective"

    Brilliantly said Nekhbet

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