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Thread: Tamar Geller - Oh, how you make me laugh.

  1. #1
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    Post Tamar Geller - Oh, how you make me laugh.

    Oh, Tamar Geller. Oh how you make me laugh with your constant hypocrisies and lack of understanding of training concepts in your book - The Loved Dog.

    Quote of the day from her book:

    "Instead, we use the opposite of reward, which, contrary to popular belief, is not punishment. It is a non-reward, which creates a sense of loss and is a subtle, gentle form of negative feedback - which keeps the dog motivated without pain or fear."
    That, my dear, is called "Negative Punishment".

    Definition of negative punishment:

    Negative punishment is an important concept in B. F. Skinner's theory of operant conditioning. In behavioural psychology, the goal of punishment is to decrease the behavior that precedes it. In the case of negative punishment, it involves taking something good or desirable away in order to reduce the occurrence of a particular behavior.
    Ah, one of THOSE positive, reward based, only trainers that frustrate me, simply because they don't know the meaning of Punishment. Although, she is a special kind of these trainers, because she has sited many accounts of positive punishment in her book without even realising.

    You gotta laugh, right?

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    No, can't laugh, because how many poor confused dogs and owners are out there because of this nonsense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by farrview View Post
    No, can't laugh, because how many poor confused dogs and owners are out there because of this nonsense?
    I agree Farrview. I laugh to stop the anger, and hope that noone followed the nonsense and then failed and gave their dog away.

    I must note that the positive punishment she has cited herself doing in her book has all been verbal, not physical, but one was scary enough that the dog refused to walk through it's front gate and had to be driven out. A little too much positive punishment with that one, I think. I must find that part of the book and write the quote.

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    More the reason not to take any notice of these so called "Experts".
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

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    I'd say I'm offended, but its partly true. Jusy because they say they are an expert/trainer/behaviourist doesn't mean they actually know what they're on about.

    You need to ask questions before employing a trainer. Just because they say they are reward only trainers or positive only trainers, doesnt mean they actually are. And if they are reward only (no punishment of any kind) then they probably won't be able to help with severe behavioural issues.

    Don't get me wrong, she seems like a lovely lady and helps people with their problems, its just her view on trainers that use any equipment other than a lead and flat collar are narcistic cruel inhumane people that get off on punishing dogs, which puts the rest of us in a bad light to the public reading it.

  6. #6

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    Weird that she doesn't realize that it's just quicker and easier if you use incentives. The dog feels that it benefits, and it associates the desired behaviour with a good feeling. Sure you can use negative re-enforcement and it works up to a certain point. But positive reenforcement just works so much better and makes the training experience more fun for dog and owner.
    Last edited by Mosh; 01-19-2013 at 12:31 AM.

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    She does use negative reinforcement a lot. She just has a funny way of looking at dealing with problem behaviours.

    She says you should NEVER use punishment on a dog because it can emotionally wreck the dog and what not, but then uses P+ and P- when explaining how to deal with a problem behaviour.

    I'm not saying she's a bad trainer, I'm saying she doesn't know what punishment is and by saying punishment is bad and don't trust the trainers that use it, she's making herself look stupid to those that have field knowledge and making trainers that use punishment correctly seem "evil" to those unkowledgable reading the book.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Pawfectionist View Post
    She does use negative reinforcement a lot. She just has a funny way of looking at dealing with problem behaviours.

    She says you should NEVER use punishment on a dog because it can emotionally wreck the dog and what not, but then uses P+ and P- when explaining how to deal with a problem behaviour.

    I'm not saying she's a bad trainer, I'm saying she doesn't know what punishment is and by saying punishment is bad and don't trust the trainers that use it, she's making herself look stupid to those that have field knowledge and making trainers that use punishment correctly seem "evil" to those unkowledgable reading the book.
    The problem is that people have different ideas concerning what is punishment and what isn't.

    Years ago I used negative reinforcement to get my dog to stop whining and squealing in the car. A new rule was implemented: dogs that were quiet got to sit on the seat and look out the window. Dogs who are noisy have to sit on the floor and are told "be quiet". It's negative reinforcement because it involves removing a negative condition when the good behaviour is displayed, obviously the dog does not like to sit on the floor and wishes to sit on the seat. I had a conversation with another trainer who told me what I was doing was "punishment" and therefore bad, but I disagreed then and I disagree now. I think people like her stubbornly cling to one doctrine of training without realizing that varying combinations of all techniques works best, since every dog is a unique individual.

    On the whole I'd have to say that positive reinforcement works best for most cases. Instead of nullifying a negative effect, the dog focuses its mind on achieving a positive effect. There are some exceptions to this, the "Gentle Leader" works by negative reinforcement - the harness stops being uncomfortable when the dog walks nicely.

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