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Thread: Views welcome on finding a good source of fibre to supplement a REAL RAW (meat) diet.

  1. #1

    Default Views welcome on finding a good source of fibre to supplement a REAL RAW (meat) diet.

    Hi,

    I have had my dog on a raw diet for a few years now. A variety of meats, offal and bones.

    Reading AAFCO I am looking at balancing the nutrients so they have a similar profile. At least I wont feel guilty that way.

    If you are a strong pellets or wet food dog food manufactured feeder, then this might make little sense, but for anyone aiming for a genuine raw diet (not a trademark in sight) then I wonder if you have been across this ...

    The "canine and feline nutrition' bible by Case, daristotle et al), makes many cases for feeding pellets (they also happen to be mostly from Proctor and gamble.

    However I have found snippets within the book, that happen to mention that carbs are not essential. Yes these snippets exist, and were not easy to find ...

    BUT my main issue is that I found a lot of evidence that the one part that meat (offal and bones) cant satisfy is the creation of short chain fatty acids (SCFA's) from "moderate fermentable fibres". I spent a day or so putting an article together on this (but cant show you because that would be advertising). The SCFA's are vital as an energy source to the good bacteria and the cells of the intestine, making the whole structure much more robust. That is a massive simplification of what they do, but I am sure you can research it ...

    The short story is that the accidental ingestions of carbs via animals stomachs etc, may have provided the right kind of fibre in wild dogs, but domestic dogs on a raw diet, or not able to eat the whole of the animal are missing out on the massive benefits to the intestine that SCFA's create.

    I was willing to compromise and feed 80-90% raw and the rest pellets, however that will not provide sufficient fiber (as fibre is typically 4.5% dry weight, which is adjusted assuming the pet primarily eats pellets/ carbs). One option would be to buy a weight control formula that has 10% fibre, but it needs to be the right fermentable fibre (four main ones) and probably higher then that if I am only using 10-20% pellets.

    IT seems that the only way might be to buy the fibre such as rice bran as a stand alone ingredient and try and work out some way to make it palatable enough to eat. Pellet makers spend their lives making the non tasty grains palatable by heat treatment, oil, sugar etc, but I digress.

    Any raw feeders that have resolved this issue?

    Has anyone in here been across such an issue and how have you solved it?

    p.s. there seems to be no equivalent of created SCFA's without the right kind of fibre. Yes?
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    That is a very technical analysis of dog diet requirements, with no back up pointing to unbiased double blind scientific studies.

    Or a good definition of what fibre is and why it is important or not - to a dog.

    You also haven't stated what you put in your "raw" diet. My understanding of it was it is a combination of raw meat, bones and vegies. All of which would have some "fibre" - which I usually understand to mean complex carbohydrates - but not starch, or fats. More like straw, sawdust, cornmeal, bran - that kind of stuff, that just goes through unprocessed and carries with it some of the wastes that need flushing out of the digestive system.

    If I mix bran or oats and olive oil together - my dog will eat it. I could mix 50/50 bran and mince - and she'd eat that too. She's not that fussy. So adding some extra complex carbs to your dog's diet - is pretty easy.

    As for how much - I don't know the answer to that. I don't know how to measure it either except by the size and quality of her poops. Personally I like her poop to be soft but firm enough to pick up without attaching itself to the lawn. Ie not runny and not rock hard either. Maybe meat sausage texture? If you squeeze it - it squishes but it can hold its own shape. (can you tell I don't like sausages much).

    So when I see my dog tucking into some long grass in the weed patch - I figure she's upping her fibre intake. Same as when she eats a raw carrot - or even a cooked one.

  3. #3

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    "That is a very technical analysis of dog diet requirements, with no back up pointing to unbiased double blind scientific studies. "

    If you want all the studies and references I can supply them. Didn't think it was warranted (or allowed) in this forum. I am just trying to do right by my dog, and it is clear that certain types of fibre have been found to be vital to optimum intestine health in canines ...

    True raw diets don't include veggies (from UK forum definitions). BARF kinds of diets include veggies. My dog gets wheat through the use of it as a binder in treats, but the ideal fibre is not usually wheat based.

    My dog is part poodle and he has very specific tastes. I don't need to hear from people about "if you starve a dog they will come around" because in the past he has chosen to have the food rot, and raw food ideally shouldn't be kept in and out of fridges for long periods.

    The fibre they talk about in the studies is a specific type of fibre, not just any old fibre. the non digestible kind is great for stool formation, but this is about the SCFA's not the texture of poos.

    If you want me to include a link to my article or other references, and I am allowed to do so, then let me know ,,

    All I know is that now that I have found this "missing" nutrient, I am trying to figure out how to get it into my dog.
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  4. #4

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    Sources:

    Dietary fibre sources and its effects on colonic microstructure and histopathology of Beagle dogs. Reinhart, Moxley, Clemens 1994

    Kripke S, Fox A, Berman J .. Stimulation of dietary fibre and its effects on colonic growth with intracolonic infusion of short chain fatty acids. JPEN 13, 109-116, 1988

    Kamath PS, Hoepfner MT, Philips SF: Short-chain fatty acids stimulate motility of the canine ileum, AM J Physical 253; G427-G433 1987

    There are about twenty I can cite if you need. Its pretty much proven science.

    I have summarised much of this material in: The use of carbohydrates as nutrition in a dogs diet & supplement in a raw meat diet

    I have listed the fementablity index of about 15 sources if fibre, but the ones they recommend (because they are "moderately fermentable") are : Beet pulp; rice bran; gum arabic.
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  5. #5
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    I use grated sweet potato, sometimes beetroot as well.
    I prefer to keep it simple and just use fresh foods.

  6. #6
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    Dedicated 'Raw' feeders don't include vegetables, but do include the entire stomach of the animal or, at least, the unbleached stomach (?green tripe).
    Raw feeders who can't provide an entire animal try to feed an overall balance of 10% bone, 10% organs and 80% meat, with heart being a meat.
    I tried to follow it for a few months (Misha was in doggy heaven!), but not do-able without a dedicated freezer and access to inexpensive and freshly slaughtered/hunted animals!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by grevillea47 View Post
    Dedicated 'Raw' feeders don't include vegetables, but do include the entire stomach of the animal or, at least, the unbleached stomach (?green tripe).
    Raw feeders who can't provide an entire animal try to feed an overall balance of 10% bone, 10% organs and 80% meat, with heart being a meat.
    I tried to follow it for a few months (Misha was in doggy heaven!), but not do-able without a dedicated freezer and access to inexpensive and freshly slaughtered/hunted animals!
    Thank god, a like minded person!

    I have not been against vegetables as such for any reason except I believe evolution wise that dogs have not adapted to a grain diet in the last 100 years. That is a commercial campaign, not reality. I did not believe in the whole 'dogs eat the contents of the stomach, therefore they are an omnivore crap and can be fed almost exclusively grain story' so I began the raw meat based diet. Now only with the fibre research have I found that maybe the accidental inclusion of vegetables in their diet was how fibre was ingested. And it might just be the fibre found in prey's stomachs ... (so I can turn around the grain/ carbs based lobby's claim to continue my raw research).

    I can only find white tripe at my butchers, and if you see the nutrient list it is one of the least dense foods, but my dog has a massive preference for it. Shame it is more expensive than beef flesh !!

    I don't have a dedicated freezer for his diet, and we have a small fridge, but he has almost half the freezer dedicated to his meals and I only have to shop once every three weeks, with short term fill ins for chicken drumsticks and necks at supermarkets.

    I will learn more things about a complete raw diet as I go, and am constructing nutrition tables for it, similar to those found for the AAFCO tables that are biased towards manufactured dog food. Many of the principles like the vitamin and mineral ration are based on sound practices, so I am aiming to tie down the last few remaining issues. Getting beet pulp into my dogs diet so he eats it may be one of the remaining issues.
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  8. #8
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    I have not been against vegetables as such for any reason except I believe evolution wise that dogs have not adapted to a grain diet in the last 100 years.
    vegetables, lupins and grains are different things. Dogs are not obligate carnivores and as such a component of vegetable matter can be beneficial. I don't like solely meat diets as they are lacking, not all vitamins and amino acids come from animal sources which is why you find dogs scavenge as they do. I use the Vets All Natural diet for my dogs and the fibre component comes from vegetable matter as well as some rolled oats. What you are referring too is prebiotics, what the bacteria in the gut can use as a food source in their symbiotic relationship with the host.

    As for AAFCO they are the bare legal limits to keep a dog alive which is why even crap can comply with them. If you get a good product like the SPrinter Gold or Vets All Natural range to balance the home made diet you wont need to go nuts trying to calculate the diet. Remember too ingredients do differ in their nutritional value depending on how they have been stored, growing conditions, age etc.

  9. #9

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    "Dogs are not obligate carnivores and as such a component of vegetable matter can be beneficial. "

    I love how many science journals say they are carnivores and other text put the words "NOT obligate" to suggest you can feed them mostly pellets. The reason they are not obligate is that they are scavenger by nature, and if forced will eat grass, berries and a few other things. But these are a tiny part of their wild diet. Please point me to the videos of wild dogs digging up many vegetable types and devouring them. Just because humans love feeding dogs vegetables (thinking it makes them more human) I am not convinced that they are necessary.

    "they are lacking, not all vitamins and amino acids"

    Again, where does this myth come from? I researched the vitamins, minerals and proteins in meats and guess what, they aren't lacking.

    Again the moderators can remove these links if you want, but previously I was also admonished for not providing proof to my statements:

    Dog Nutrition - meat V vegetable, vitamins & minerals V. AAFCO guidelines
    Dog Nutrition is complete when fed a raw meat diet. See how the nutrition profiles compare with AAFCO guidelines.

    Note nutrients on a meat raw diet come from meat, offal and bones you feed your dog. The tables in the articles show meat nutrients for several sources. Note this is just raw meat and the addition of offlal and bones makes up the 'shortfall' to the aafco standards. You will also probably find that Pellets don't just have grains and veggies whacked in, they probably need a lot of mineral and vitamin fortification to meet the standards - hence making the club more exclusive, and not necessarily required.

    I am not referring to "prebiotics" per se, the use of the fibre is also when converted to scfa's for energy for the cells in the intestine wall lining. This is all in the article I have included in a previous post. Its a long article, but may include some facts that people will appreciate. That is the reason for this whole thread and why I was trying to find ideas about supplying the right fibre (the moderately fermentable kind as discussed).

    Fibre prebiotics are ones such as : inulin, galatooligosaccharides, lactulose, FOS and MOS. They do play an important role, but my discussion here is about scfa's.. the fact that inulin provides both an scfa and a prebiotic function is great, but of course inulin can be produced by several vegetable sources and its potency may be harder to define when buying for the purpose of addition to a dogs diet - as opposed to say x grams of rice bran.

    "ingredients do differ in their nutritional value depending on how they have been stored, growing conditions, age etc." ... and in particular heat treatment processing method, if they use the whole or refined grains etc. Yes its a minefield and they all keep their recipe secret and just claim to be the best.

    I agree/ have read, that the AAFCO guidelines dont always seem to be purely created on scientific principles.

    Perhaps I will just try and find a source of rice bran or beet pulp and work out how to disguise it in his food ... my dog isnt one of those that "eats everything" which I am actually quite happy about.
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  10. #10
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    I love how many science journals say they are carnivores and other text put the words "NOT obligate" to suggest you can feed them mostly pellets. The reason they are not obligate is that they are scavenger by nature, and if forced will eat grass, berries and a few other things.
    My dogs are on a raw diet with plenty of meat, they go eat the fruit and vegetables from my backyard. They're not starving or lacking at all in nutrition stakes. Dog's are physiologically not obligate - they can survive without pure protein unlike cats and ferrets who suffer very quickly. I'm not saying feed them dry shite at all am I?

    "ingredients do differ in their nutritional value depending on how they have been stored, growing conditions, age etc." ... and in particular heat treatment processing method, if they use the whole or refined grains etc. Yes its a minefield and they all keep their recipe secret and just claim to be the best.
    I was talking about raw fruits/vegetables.

    You're also not convinced vegetables are necessary but you want to feed rice bran and beet pulp - both are byproducts. I can tell you exactly where to find them. At a stockfeeds store because they're feed for ruminants, camelids and horses who have a different digestive system to your dog. As for why they're popular, they're a cheap addition to dry dog foods. Also take a look who seems to be coining the 'moderately fermentable fiber' phrase ... the dry food companies.

    Digestion from fiber only makes up a small part of SCFA's, you do know you can add things like palm oil, coconut oil, chia seed soaked, flax meal and some unpasturised apple cider vinegar to the diet to boost the SCFA content of the diet as well as provide some indigestible fiber for intestinal function.

    As for wild dogs eating vegetable matter
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