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Thread: Views welcome on finding a good source of fibre to supplement a REAL RAW (meat) diet.

  1. #11
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    and to show it's not a fake photo

  2. #12
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    Please point me to the videos of wild dogs digging up many vegetable types and devouring them.
    Nice work Nekhbet.

    I haven't got any video but a heap of observations... note - our pet dogs are not like African Wild Dogs - and those are not like wolves.

    So my dog eats what vegetation she can get - and I don't force her to, she seeks it out. She will go a long way to harvest carobs off the hedges around our local oval. At the right time of year. She will pick chillies off the bush (eek). I think she ate my strawberries. But she would have been competing with the snails there.

    I've observed a few other dogs - digging up grass and eating the roots of it.

    And dingos - will dig up human poop and eat it if you don't put big rocks on top of your deposits. The dingos are not that keen on the toilet paper tho. I've seen them queueing up for mine. But I found some rocks.

    I hate when a perfectly good word gets stolen for something other than what it traditionally means - eg raw - means not cooked (or processed) - in my opinion. But I see there is some more esoteric definition that says it means uncooked meat only - when you're talking about raw dog food.

    I know some humans who are into raw and vegan - EEEEKKKK!!! Hard to stay healthy on that diet but not impossible.

    I read somewhere that some nutrients are improved or made available for human digestion by cooking. And that others are destroyed by cooking. Can't be stuffed googling for details right now.

    Another not quite rigourous scientific study was done by Farley Mowat when he camped out in the Canadian? Artic with wolves. He tried copying their diet and found he needed to eat the whole mouse (though he drew the line at fur), to stay healthy. If he only ate the muscle and bones, he got sick. I'm not sure he knew that dogs (and wolves?) could make their own vitamin C (prevents scurvy). I can't remember if he cooked the mouse first. And I can't remember how he managed to eat it without throwing it up again straight after.

    Frosty refuses to eat mice. Not even fresh ones.

  3. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    You're also not convinced vegetables are necessary but you want to feed rice bran and beet pulp - both are byproducts. I can tell you exactly where to find them. At a stockfeeds store because they're feed for ruminants, camelids and horses who have a different digestive system to your dog. As for why they're popular, they're a cheap addition to dry dog foods. Also take a look who seems to be coining the 'moderately fermentable fiber' phrase ... the dry food companies.

    Digestion from fiber only makes up a small part of SCFA's, you do know you can add things like palm oil, coconut oil, chia seed soaked, flax meal and some unpasturised apple cider vinegar to the diet to boost the SCFA content of the diet as well as provide some indigestible fiber for intestinal function.
    'moderately fermentable fiber' is based on science research into what is enough fibre, without causing diarrhea. As in the table in included in my article there are many sources of fibre but only a few hit the mid range sweet spot. Perhaps the ones not in the know feed any old fibre, or maybe the very high and very low are cheaper inputs? Since very few people seem to know about this concept I doubt that its a dry food selling point or conspiracy. Though the science does look solid enough to make sense.

    I was just toying with the idea of if feeding one quarter of the highest fermentable (ie one quarter pellets in a diet) would have the same results as feeding the moderate in a 100% diet. Not sure how that science works out.

    "You're also not convinced vegetables are necessary but you want to feed rice bran and beet pulp " As said, OK, dogs would get fibre from the occassional berry or prey's stomach, but I dont think that is sufficient to call them obligate or give them a pellet diet that is mainly carbs. The research I have read suggests that the fibre, and only specific fibre is the only thing that cant be provided by meat. Just trying to do right by my dog. Not score points.

    Sounds like a good idea to find a "stockfeeds store" at least I can talk to someone over the phone.

    I wasnt sure of other sources of SCFA's so thanks for the tip on " palm oil, coconut oil, chia seed soaked, flax meal and some unpasturised apple cider vinegar" though if I am trying to keep to a more natural diet, then something that might turn up in a rabbit or other herbivores stomach like the regular fibre products (rice bran etc) might be more of what i am looking for. Particularly since I am not sure of how to gauge the equivalent coconut oil to 5% fibre in a pellet.

    I have heard that some people use oils and flax seed for coat shininess too ..

    Thank you for the information ... it helps quite a bit!
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  4. #14

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    When I say raw, I usually say raw meat, and bone and offal so people dont get confused.

    I hear of many people who speak about how many vegetables their dogs eat. It may just be that grain from pellets give a dog a taste for carbs. A dog will learn to eat what the owner puts out for it, whether that be cows milk (that is usually bad for most dogs because of lactose) or strawberries or rice crackers.

    I know that my dog doesnt eat berries etc, but then again I am fairly strict on a raw meat (etc etc) diet. I walked a golden retriever once that ate a whole loaf of white bread that someone had thoughtfuly left in the park for the birds, while my dog walked over it without any temptation.

    Dogs are scavengers, but the evolved from wolves and the wolves main diet is the prey it kills, until lean times. They will eat poo, but that is very stinky and may be eaten for many reasons besides the carbs in it. For instance Pica, or an obsession or becuse it tastes yummy. Yummy does not always = what is good for a species. My dog eats grass, but as anyone who has researched this knows, there are many reasons SPECULATED for doing that, not just nutrients.

    This whole thread was started about the benefit of "moderately digestible fibres" in the creation of SCFA's (which hopefully my citations have convinced people is a real issue) and my quest to find how to incorporate those into my dogs diet. It seems to have been slightly hi-jacked by the 'dog naturally eat lots of vegetables' brigade.

    Everyone has their own views on the best dog diet. This was not a challenge to the exalted pellets and veggies clans!
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

  5. #15
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    I hear of many people who speak about how many vegetables their dogs eat. It may just be that grain from pellets give a dog a taste for carbs.
    Now you're just making things up. Again my dogs are on a raw diet, they get plenty to eat and they will all happily eat what there is in the backyard. I don't put plums, nectarines and apples in my dogs food but they're happy to pick them straight off the tree and spit out the pips.

    though if I am trying to keep to a more natural diet, then something that might turn up in a rabbit or other herbivores stomach like the regular fibre products (rice bran etc) might be more of what i am looking for. Particularly since I am not sure of how to gauge the equivalent coconut oil to 5% fibre in a pellet.
    Let me give you a quick lesson in prey digestion. Plant material is incredibly poor in nutrition and it's why prey animals like rabbits and horses have to constantly eat and their poo output is incredibly high. These species have a modified digestive system with a cecum, a vat where cellulose digesting bacteria live and they perform 'hindgut fermentation' of poor quality fibre. It's why if you feed these animals high sugar foods like grains they get very sick very fast if they're not used to it.
    Ruminants like cows, sheep and goats are different, they have large rumens that have a massive surface area to grow bacteria that are able to help digest cellulose, which plant walls are made of. If you don't punch through those plant walls of cellulose you access NO nutritional content. It's also why digestive health and the balance of bacteria in these herbivores gut is so important their lives literally depend on it. Ruminants chew cud to help mechanically break down the cellulose walls again, rabbits will eat their own fecal matter produced at night to get what they can out of poor sources of nutrition.

    Carnivores and humans cannot digest cellulose at all, we're completely incapable of it (you know how vege matter comes out in chunks in your poo?) Dogs do not have the bacteria to adequately digest plant sources which is why they're usually pulped/juiced (BARF diet, to access what is inside the cellulose walls) or cooked to death in dog foods. It's the only way they're really usable. As for not causing stomach upsets I can guarentee your little poodle will have a gut ache in no time from you adding rice/beet pulp from a feed store. It's a raw form suitable for digestion by herbivores, NOT dogs.

    The gut contents of something like a herbivore are digested which means the conversion to SCFA's and other usable products is already done for the dog. In order to mimic eating a rabbits gut contents you need to provide the end products, not the raw products. A small component of indigestible fibre encourages fluid balance in the intestines to prevent constipation and encourage regularity (which in turn prevents over digestion/rotting of the left overs) but is not there for truly reliable nutritional content. SCFA's I have provided you a list of to add properly to the dogs diet. The oils are added for the dogs coat because they are quickly and readily absorbed as they are in their final state.

    If you want to know how much your dog needs a day give me your dogs weight and I'll tell you how much indigestible fibre and oil you need to sloooowly build it up to, to prevent stomach upsets.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nekhbet View Post
    Plant material is incredibly poor in nutrition...
    I'll just throw in the idea that vegetables and fruit are plants, and have extensive value nutritionally, whereas meat does not. You do have to take in more of them relative to meat though (regarding the digestive business).

    Also, I don't know where you got the idea humans weren't meant to eat plants (that's the definite vibe I'm getting off you). We're omnivorous.

    Fruit and vegetables, and human cancer. - Abstract - Europe PubMed Central

    To back up my claim some more.

    Oh well, I feed my dog pellets and nothing more (occassional scrap of table food).

  7. #17
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    It may just be that grain from pellets give a dog a taste for carbs.
    I'm with Nekhbet on this one. What the dog has a taste for - isn't directly related to what it gets fed. One of my fave sayings here, is that dogs like supercoat like teenagers like maccas...

    There are certain trigger food chemicals (for humans - salt, sugar and fat), that critters crave from when these things were high nutrient and hard to get. Salt being something we can't live without and depending where we live - hard to get. In these days of processed food - the trigger foods get added quite deliberately to encourage us to buy (and eat) more of whatever it is.

    We haven't evolved enough yet to live comfortably with our current food supply (and marketing strategies).

    And our dogs probably haven't yet either - so it is up to us to manage what they get. But what they'd choose to eat without our intervention - doesn't have much to do with what we feed them.

    There are whole lot of things I never feed my dog that she will happily tuck into uninvited - like asidians that wash up on the beach. And there are quite a few things I offer her that she won't eat (like citrus) that other dogs will. Even dogs in the same household have different tastes in food. And a lot of dogs will try what the other dog is eating... especially grass.

    I think grass (and gum leaves) are what Nekhbet is talking about when it comes to hard to access nutrients. Fruit and other veg? that are high in fructose or sugar, have easier to access nutrients.

    Corn - will go straight through my dog unchanged. It's one way to find out how long it takes for food to go through. I can do the same to me - if I don't chew it properly. Strong cellulose wall. All those seed things - they're designed to travel through and out the other end ready to grow in their new location and pile of fertiliser. I used to call my old horse the paddock seeder - because if you gave him oats that weren't rolled flat - they would go straight through unchanged. He depended on pellets with pre-crushed grains.

    I like to give my dog the occasional carrot - because it gives her something to munch on that won't end up making her tubby. And that stops her from giving me the "feed me" look (or bark) for a while.

  8. #18
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    I'll just throw in the idea that vegetables and fruit are plants, and have extensive value nutritionally, whereas meat does not. You do have to take in more of them relative to meat though (regarding the digestive business).

    Also, I don't know where you got the idea humans weren't meant to eat plants (that's the definite vibe I'm getting off you). We're omnivorous.
    We were meant to also eat plants because we have amylase in our saliva which starts breaking down starches since they take longer to digest. Plant material itself, unless you break down the walls around the cells, is not really that nutritious. You need to eat a lot of it properly to get the benefits. We as humans have the benefits of cooking and processing as well as human created plant varieties which are more nutritious then their natural, wild relatives. Without processing most of it comes out the back end in a human. Our molar teeth can grind down plant material to help us access the nutrition as well but dogs do not have that benefit, nor the salivary amylase which is in animals made to process raw plant materials/grains etc. They do have it lower down in their intestinal tract but that really does not do much compared to omnivores/herbivores.

    Plants do not have a skeleton, their outer cell walls are made of cellulose which holds them rigid. It's also a really tough compound to try and digest or even chop up at all. Ruminants can break it down in their rumen IF they have the necessary symbiotic bacteria designed to live in a rumen. Those bacteria do not live in the digestive system of humans and carnivores. Even though we eat plant material we cannot eat ALL plant material, only the softest and most nutritionally accessable parts of the plants because we cannot process bulk fiber like ruminants/camelids/rabbits/equines. If we could eat all plants we could happily eat grass and leaves as well which we cannot, it would come right out the back end and you would have one hell of a stomach ache. Beet fiber and rice bran too is not accessible to us or dogs, it has lower digestability and low simple sugars which is why it's so good for horses and ruminants, it wont sugar them up (which ferments to dangerous byproducts, just like leaving fruit juice out on a warm bench) which then causes problems like laminitis, colic, bloat and other dangerous problems. Rice bran has a reasonable component of rice bran oil which is incredibly good for the skin and coat, but instead of giving your dog diarrhea from a lot of indigestible fiber in its gut you can just give then raw end product in a smaller quantity - it's what you're after anyway.

    Meat does have incredible nutritional value, it's farmed meat which is the bane of the 21st century. Free range and wild game meats should always be a preference to intensively farmed animals on artificial diets, slaughtered way too young and overprocessed.

  9. #19

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    just to be clear. There are virtually NO scientific texts that say meat has poor nutrition for humans or dogs.
    There are a lot of texts that acknowledge that dogs find it harder to use the proteins from plants than meat.

    Dogs have some amylase in their saliva (just not as much as herbivores) cats have virtually none which is why the are 100% carnivore. As many of you know, the digestive processes involved in dogs intestines are complex, there are many more chemicals involved that are being bandied about in here. Lets not get into a bun fight about something that would take pages to explain even simply.

    On the point of carbs in dogs diets, if you check out leading brands of dog pellets (I know because I have researched this and am writing an article on it) you will see that meat is often the first ingredient, followed by 2 to 5 grains. This means that meat rarely is much over 20% of the total pellet. If it is "chicken" as opposed to "chicken meal" it includes water so you can half its dry weight value etc. I am researching it at the moment to find what techniques they use to adjust their ingredients from adult, to mature to weight control products. Quite interesting if you feed your dog dog food from a shop. I just like to know what my dog is eating and why. And if it would ever be of use to my dog.

    People expect meat (as pictured on the pack and included in the brand name) to be the major ingredient. Funny how it can be listed first, but it makes up a small part of the pack. From the above argument and other sites you must acknowledge that grains the biggest part of most pellet meals. WHY? It is not because they are easier to digest (even after a lot of processing), its because it is CHEAPEST. Also I have read papers that rightly suggest that if everyone went on a raw meat based diet, meat prices would sky rocket, and we cant have that.

    "vegetables and fruit are plants, and have extensive value nutritionally" yes veggies and fruits are plants (as are grains) but they must be supplemented massively by additional vitamins and minerals just to meet the AAFCO guidelines (read the ingredient list of most dog foods) - Note the guidelines were created by pet food company input into AAFCO to ensure an exclusive club and legitimise their products. To win the "complete and balanced" label you have to meet the AAFCO guidelines and be approved by their testing equivalent. You can knock AAFCO, but if you feed your dog pellets or canned food, then any nutritional information you read, is essentially requested or sanctioned by the group, so why fight it?

    I have stated it before, but look for yourself the nutrients available by meat, bones and offal, and they have a very complete mix. I have include links to the research I have done including meat (cow, lamb etc) based nutrition. It does not have to be game meat.

    The only thing I have found (by first hand research, not rumour) is fiber that both makes the stools thick and solid and easy to pick up ( a benefit listed on almost every pack) plus the fermentable fibres that aid intestine bacteria and intestine walls to grow strong.

    The grains use in pellets whether whole or processed are ground and processed massively to enable dogs to utilise their nutrients. Just another fact.

    The main three fibers recommended (BY SCIENCE PAPERS) are beet pulp, rice bran and gum arabic. Of course beet pulp is crushed into an accessible form as is rice bran. Chances are that these turn up in the papers because they are the kinds of fiber that dog food companies use. But the papers include a list of 'poor' fibre (as far as their ability to be fermented in the intestine: as fibers such as : cellulose, locust bean gum and xanthan gum.

    rice bran oil - does sound like an option, probably available form a health food store. I just need tables for a moderately exercised dog of 20 kg, 6 years old. Nekhbet do you have that information source? Tables on all of the oils for a spread of dogs would be VERY VERY HANDY, maybe even the raw meat (and bone and offal) diet's holy grail of information.

    From my research it appears that very few companies use the 'right' fermentable grains to assist gut health, and those that do only do it as 5% for the whole meal (if I used one quarter pellets I would need a 20% fiber value to make up for using less pellets - OR some of the oils in the right amounts, plus a little bit of pellets OR non digestible fiber like cellulose fully crushed to assist in firm stools.

    I get that this parlour trick (adding fiber) is because my dog inst grazing in the garden eating veggies or eating the whole animals (fur, beaks, hooves etc) but with a retriever soft jaw, he doesn't have the jaw tools of his ancestors to eat a lot of the animal 'fiber' equivalent anyway.

    I am not here to FORCE animal products over veggies and grains. I have belief's based on animal food sources and am looking at science data and tables for any additional supplements required to make that diet complete.

    Statements like "Now you're just making things up. " and "Let me give you a quick lesson in prey digestion" are inflammatory and arrogant and I am surprise that moderators have not cautioned. I have qualifications too, (I have not always been a dog walker), even if you are a vet, it means very little to your arguments considering that vets sell cat's carb pellets (you know those animals that are 100% carnivores). I can keep quoting science papers until the cows come home, but there is no point in me trying to convince pellet and carb based diet people - that is your choice, this thread is to explore additional information and supplements that I feel I need.
    Bruce is a "dog walker in inner west Melbourne" & sells "Healthy Dog treats." My dog Archie approves of these things.

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