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Thread: A Question for Clubsprint

  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by puggerup View Post
    being excluded ensures that breeders will be registered their APBT's as AMstaffs.
    Being excluded from the ANKC , as they have been from the very start wont ensure that breeders register their dogs as Amstaff,it doesn't ensure they will get registered at all , period.
    Last edited by ChoppaChop; 09-26-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keira & Phoenix View Post
    Ahhh I thought you must be out that way because you suggested Darlington. BTW I looked up that Darlington Park, is it part of Lamington National Park? Because if it is dogs are not allowed in Nat Park areas
    Its not actually in the national park, its just on the "edge"! But dogs are allowed there, we have seen plenty of people camping and they have had them! lol They just have to be on leash.

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  3. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    Being excluded from the ANKC , as they have been from the very start wont ensure that breeders register their dogs as Amstaff,it doesn't ensure they will get registered at all , period.
    No what I meant was, that if they want to register their breeding business they will just call them Amstaffs so they can

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Specifically - I thought Amstaff have been selected for better more stable friendly temperment than APBT.

    Given that APBT have been restricted for multiple dog generations now and excluded from ANKC - it's unlikely the ones bred in Australia conform to any standard. Some APBT breeders would choose even tempered dogs and some might deliberately choose bad tempered scary dogs depending on why they're breeding.
    The way i see it is :

    APBT are bred to conform to their original breed characteristics i.e courageous, people loving, stable temperamented dogs etc. The Amstaff has been bred specifically to conform to show dog standard i.e looks(obviously they retain some/most of the characteristics of the APBT). So in my opinion a well bred APBT is likely to be even more stable temperamented than an Amstaff.

    The point you make about them being bred by people who possibly don't breed them for the traits they should have is quite possibly valid - even more reason to stop BSL

  5. #155
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    A show dog must not bite or show aggression towards the show judge. Dog shows can be good temperment tests as far as friendly to humans and dogs go. Ie doesn't look good to a judge if one dog is trying to kill another in their ring. And no sensible judge is going to mark up a dog that tries to attack the judge or any other handler.

    I could be wrong about that but ANKC is not doing their job properly if I am.

    There aren't many places left in Oz where its legal to breed APBT. So it's not clear if people breeding them outside of the territories care at all about the rules of any sort.

  6. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    A show dog must not bite or show aggression towards the show judge. Dog shows can be good temperment tests as far as friendly to humans and dogs go. Ie doesn't look good to a judge if one dog is trying to kill another in their ring. And no sensible judge is going to mark up a dog that tries to attack the judge or any other handler.

    I could be wrong about that but ANKC is not doing their job properly if I am.

    There aren't many places left in Oz where its legal to breed APBT. So it's not clear if people breeding them outside of the territories care at all about the rules of any sort.
    Sorry but that statement sounds like you are saying that APBT's wouldn't succeed in the ring here because they would be trying to kill other dogs or bite the judges....not sure if that is what you are saying or not though.
    But just to clarify many many APBT's are dog friendly. My girl is dog friendly. There are show and working APBT's in America who all do fine.
    Also wanted to point out I know of breeds who are specifically expected to show human aggression in the ring to meet their breed standard.

    Also just because you can't register with the ANKC doesn't mean anything. I know of APBT in Aus who are registered with other registries.
    Also who says being registered with the ANKC means that the dogs will conform to standard.....I know all the regulars on this forum are well aware of a registered kennel that breeds Amstaffs well and truly away from standard.

  7. #157
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    that APBT's wouldn't succeed in the ring here because they would be trying to kill other dogs or bite the judges
    Not exactly. But a dog show would reveal some of the bad tempered dogs and reduce the chance of them breeding with other quality dogs. It's not a guarantee that you get a good tempered dog, but surely one that does well at dog shows has to have a good temperment - at least in that environment.

    APBT owners don't get to test their dogs in that environment. There are other ways to test temperment - but there would be no competition, pressure or obvious incentive for APBT breeders to select for good temperment unless they do it from their own initiative.

    I guess it would be a similar deal for back yard SBT breeders. They're not always selecting the best tempered dogs. Some might but not all. But the show breeders would have to select for good tempered dogs or they're not going to do very well in any shows. At least I hope so.

    My brother's SBT came from ANKC affiliated breeders who were showing and active in the SBT club when he chose them. And she's the nicest natured SBT I've ever met. His training would have helped too, he did work hard to expose her to lots of people, little kids and other dogs when she was growing up.

    So what I'm trying to say (and I could be wrong) is the Amstaff breeder who competes in dog shows and etc, must choose a good tempered dog. But non-show breeder or the APBT breeder - it's entirely optional.

    And just to contradict myself, but some lines of farm/working dogs that are in shows and not used for farm work - they lose some of what we like about them. Ie showing can improve a breed or ruin it. At the same time, I know a lot of farm bred extremely grumpy dogs. Not so much with their primary handler but certainly with other dogs or strangers.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    A show dog must not bite or show aggression towards the show judge. Dog shows can be good temperment tests as far as friendly to humans and dogs go. Ie doesn't look good to a judge if one dog is trying to kill another in their ring. And no sensible judge is going to mark up a dog that tries to attack the judge or any other handler.

    I could be wrong about that but ANKC is not doing their job properly if I am.
    That is true, but ALOT of judges will choose the better looking dog over the nicer dog any day. the other thing is, show people, for the most part, are able to deal with these show dogs very very well. It's the general public who get these high-strung dominant dogs (because they are the ones who come out best in the show ring due to the way they carry themselves) and cannot control them.

    Just because a dog is registered to the ANKC means nothing temperament wise IMHO. And that is true I don't think (for the most part) ANKC are doing their jobs right.

    I apologize in advance for any offence I may have given for my opinions, especially to those who breed show dogs. But I know that most members of this forum are very concious about what they breed. Unfortunately a lot of breeders out there are not.
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  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    i agree and this point just shows once again how stupid BSL is, you can own an amstaff but not an APBT
    Yep
    Badly written BSL differentiates between Amstaffs and APBTs when really they are they same thing.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by clubsprint View Post
    Yep
    Badly written BSL differentiates between Amstaffs and APBTs when really they are they same thing.
    Yep, couldn't agree more (but possibly for different justifications; all BSL is badly written and totally muddle headed).

    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    The way i see it is :

    APBT are bred to conform to their original breed characteristics i.e courageous, people loving, stable temperamented dogs etc. The Amstaff has been bred specifically to conform to show dog standard i.e looks(obviously they retain some/most of the characteristics of the APBT). So in my opinion a well bred APBT is likely to be even more stable temperamented than an Amstaff.

    The point you make about them being bred by people who possibly don't breed them for the traits they should have is quite possibly valid - even more reason to stop BSL
    Absolutely!

    Originally, APBTs were selectively bred to not display any human focused aggression; in fact 'man-biters' as they were called by the old time dog men (i.e. dog fighters) were generally culled. It was simply too dangerous to have a human aggressive dog fighting in the pits. I personally am revolted by dog fighting, but the habit of culling human aggressive dogs did result in a breed that was almost uniformly not aggressive to humans.

    Of course, there were many notable exceptions to this general rule; Chinaman being the best known. Chinaman however was a modern era dog (whelped 1977). I think that some modern day pit bull breeders couldn't give a rat's bottom (note that I don't use swear words LOL) about the dog's temperament.

    The APBT is still being bred in Australia; however, nearly all the "pit bulls" that you see advertised in Gumtree or the Quokka are quite probably not pure bred American Pit Bull Terriers. Any penis head (again, note that I don't use swear words LOL) can cross breed a staffy cross with a mastiff cross, call the pups "pit bulls" and sell them to other penis heads. "Yeah mate; pure bred Jeep and Colby lines; sire was a three time champion, dead game".

    So, by driving the breeding of the real APBT underground so that only the cognoscenti know where to obtain a proper American Pit Bull Terrier, BSL has very successfully resulted in encouraging penis heads to breed and sell dogs that they palm off to suckers as American Pit Bull Terriers at around $1,000 a pup. Now, these are badly bred dogs going to badly bred and poorly socialised humans who would not do anything to socialise them.....

    So once again, BSL has made the general public less safe and increased the likelihood of people getting attacked by dogs. I note that the dog that savaged Ayen Chol is described as being a pit bull cross.

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    Last edited by ricey; 09-28-2011 at 07:47 PM. Reason: for colour

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