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Thread: OMG my next door neighbor has bought a red nosed pit bull!!!!

  1. #361
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    What we are talking about here is "genetic predisposition"- eg a child of alcoholic parents may (and I say MAY) have a higher predisposition to alcoholism, however environment will be a strong factor in future behaviour. But what we not considering in this example- particularly in humans- is the development of a person's internal rules and beliefs system which will be highly dependent on environmental experience. Therefore, the individual with likely higher genetic predisposition (and we CANNOT predict this with any accuracy) will be solidly influenced by the morals, ethics and values taught during the early developmental period. So then we have the additional question of WHEN the child is removed from the undesirable environment. And on and on and on......

    There just simply isn't a simple answer, it's very complicated, and one cannot make generalisations as it is highly individual. However, one can say- again with humans- that an individual born of alcoholic parents has a higher liklihood of genetic predisposition to addictive behaviours... always remembering that addictive behaviour is not necessarily equal to undesirable behaviour. And then we have to follow that up with the FACT that some people develop addictive behaviours with NO genetic influence whatsoever.

    So arguments along this line really lead us nowhere in terms of being able to predict behaviour.

    In dogs, on the other hand- of course there are genetic predispositions. Otherwise we would not generally use particular breeds for particular work. And that is where breeding of dogs differs so much from breeding of humans because we manipulate it in ways we do not do with humans. But, just as a Labrador is not born trained to change the toilet roll, nor is any other dog "born" to do a behaviour. Yes, you can bring out particular behaviours with more ease- eg herding comes more naturally to BCs than say, Dobies, but with careful, consistent training, most behaviours can be elicited from any breed (excepting those that are physically impossible)- and by this I include undesirable behaviours.

    So it all comes down to the nature v nurture debate... and the end result is you can give a bad dog to a great handler and get a good dog. A great dog with a poor handler likewise may become a good or average dog. There is very, very little that is set in stone when it comes to behaviour and temperament. Genetics really only rule when it comes to physical attributes, and even this is open to some manipulation.
    Last edited by Villain & Flirtt; 01-15-2013 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Typos, clarity

  2. #362
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    I really wish people wouldn't use absolutes or extreme examples when trying to make a point. It simply doesn't work (nor really make sense). Genetic predisposition is not an absolute.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvershadowwolf24 View Post
    I really wish people wouldn't use absolutes or extreme examples when trying to make a point. It simply doesn't work (nor really make sense). Genetic predisposition is not an absolute.
    Yes. This. We must get over this tendency we have for generalisation to make a point. Fact is; not every dog of a particular breed will fit the generalisation. Not every Pit Bull will be dog agressive, not every Dobermann will be a Nazi homicidal maniac, not every BC will be good at agility, not every Mastiff will be a giant pug, and much as I hate to admit it- not every SWF will have "little dog" syndrome. Until we accept individuality and stop making generalisations, we get nowhere.

    And unless and until we start taking full responsibility for our actions, we will continue to have poor behaviour from both humans and dogs.

    It actually seems very simple to me.

  4. #364
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    I once had a T shirt with pictures on it of American Pit Bull Terriers and American Pit Bull Terrier puppies.

    The caption was "All dogs were puppies once".

    I wore it too often and it is now gone.

    The thing is, all dogs once were puppies and we humans have the opportunity while our dogs are puppies to mould them into the adult dogs we want them to be. Some of us are better at this than others. I don't pretend to be one of the world's best dog trainers but I have managed to make sure that my Hobbes is not a problem around other dogs.

    Glen Bui of the American Canine Foundation states unequivocally that he he can train any pit bull terrier to be good around other dogs. I am not up there breathing the same air as Glen does, but he is successfully training American Pit Bull Terriers to be non dog aggressive.

    So, all you people who state that American Pit Bull Terriers are damned by their genetics to be dog aggressive have yet another expert who says you are wrong. As others on this thread have said, genetic predisposition is not an absolute. It is a tendency but can be trained out. You just have to put the effort in.

    American Pit Bull Terriers are just another dog breed, and they require love and good training like any other dog breed. If a dog trainer says that they cant help you with your APBT, I'd suggest that they are actually saying that they are not a very good dog trainer. Even the popularly reviled Cesar Milan has no difficulty training American Pit Bull Terriers.

    Anyone here in WA, I can recommend two dog trainers who can certainly help you to train your American Pit Bull Terrier; these dogs are fine dogs, but they are just dogs and they respond to good training.

    Regards,

    ricey
    The APBT is the best of the best dogs (but it is just a dog, like any other breed of dog)

    My avatar? It's a pit bull in a poodle suit (a bit like me really)

  5. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricey View Post
    I once had a T shirt with pictures on it of American Pit Bull Terriers and American Pit Bull Terrier puppies.

    The caption was "All dogs were puppies once".

    I wore it too often and it is now gone.

    The thing is, all dogs once were puppies and we humans have the opportunity while our dogs are puppies to mould them into the adult dogs we want them to be. Some of us are better at this than others. I don't pretend to be one of the world's best dog trainers but I have managed to make sure that my Hobbes is not a problem around other dogs.

    Glen Bui of the American Canine Foundation states unequivocally that he he can train any pit bull terrier to be good around other dogs. I am not up there breathing the same air as Glen does, but he is successfully training American Pit Bull Terriers to be non dog aggressive.

    So, all you people who state that American Pit Bull Terriers are damned by their genetics to be dog aggressive have yet another expert who says you are wrong. As others on this thread have said, genetic predisposition is not an absolute. It is a tendency but can be trained out. You just have to put the effort in.

    American Pit Bull Terriers are just another dog breed, and they require love and good training like any other dog breed. If a dog trainer says that they cant help you with your APBT, I'd suggest that they are actually saying that they are not a very good dog trainer. Even the popularly reviled Cesar Milan has no difficulty training American Pit Bull Terriers.

    Anyone here in WA, I can recommend two dog trainers who can certainly help you to train your American Pit Bull Terrier; these dogs are fine dogs, but they are just dogs and they respond to good training.

    Regards,

    ricey
    This!

    everything comes back to self responsibility and making the right choices
    a powerful breed can be as soft as a smaller breed - its all about training
    and consistency - It is just very unfortunate for the bully breeds to have
    a negative impression to the society these days - however I am owner of
    2 beautiful bullies, consistency in training and socializing is the key.
    m<(o.o)>m

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricey View Post
    So, all you people who state that American Pit Bull Terriers are damned by their genetics to be dog aggressive have yet another expert who says you are wrong.
    ricey, can I just say that this statement is an absolute :P Just because a dog is bred for dog aggression, doesn't' mean it will be dog aggressive... but it will be easier to MAKE the dog dog aggressive. That is what genetic predisposition is. In saying that, I agree with you certainly, all dogs were puppies and it's how they're trained that really defines them.

    Someone made the example earlier with could you strap a harness onto a labrador and it will lead blind people. No, of course the dog couldn't as it's a learned ability. However, dogs bred for the purpose of becoming a guide dog, are bred FOR being calm, inquisitive and all that goes with it.

    Fact is, genetics DOES play a part in the dog's life... however, it does not HAVE to be an absolute. This is what I was trying to say. You could take one of those specially guide dog bred dogs and make it fight, like people do with pit bulls and all those others. Nurture is more important than Nature, yes, but to completely dismiss genetics all together in an argument is silly. It's just unfortunate that most people in the "omg dog aggressive bred dog is dog aggressive" camp won't see passed this and realise how important nurture really is.


    Our Breeding Program - Guide Dogs Queensland

  7. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by silvershadowwolf24 View Post
    ricey, can I just say that this statement is an absolute :P Just because a dog is bred for dog aggression, doesn't' mean it will be dog aggressive... but it will be easier to MAKE the dog dog aggressive. That is what genetic predisposition is. In saying that, I agree with you certainly, all dogs were puppies and it's how they're trained that really defines them.

    Someone made the example earlier with could you strap a harness onto a labrador and it will lead blind people. No, of course the dog couldn't as it's a learned ability. However, dogs bred for the purpose of becoming a guide dog, are bred FOR being calm, inquisitive and all that goes with it.

    Fact is, genetics DOES play a part in the dog's life... however, it does not HAVE to be an absolute. This is what I was trying to say. You could take one of those specially guide dog bred dogs and make it fight, like people do with pit bulls and all those others. Nurture is more important than Nature, yes, but to completely dismiss genetics all together in an argument is silly. It's just unfortunate that most people in the "omg dog aggressive bred dog is dog aggressive" camp won't see passed this and realise how important nurture really is.


    Our Breeding Program - Guide Dogs Queensland
    Yes, I agree; genetics gives us a predisposition but nurture gives us the dog. A bit like the Jesuits who said "give us a boy at the age of 7 and we will give you the man". Genetics is a big factor, but the most recent evidence shows us that nurture is a bigger factor. There is a lot of interesting research emerging on identical twins that suggests that even identical twins (who obviously have identical genes) will differ markedly according to their nurture. These twins will not only behave differently, they will look different. Most of us accept that identical twins may behave differently, but most of us think they will look identical. But they don't; so they are not identical even though they have identical genes. The American Pit Bull Terrier is one of the purest of pure bred dog breeds but very few of them are twins so next to none have identical genes. Their gene pool is not as stagnant as some other breeds, and it is certainly wider and deeper, and I do not think that the APBT is enslaved by its genes to be a fighting dog. Any half arsed dog trainer could train an APBT to be a fine companion dog. It really is not that hard. The APBT has a well deserved reputation as a versatile and easily trained dog breed.

    I am a bit dismayed that people who have no experience with APBTs are prepared to lay down the law as to how my breed should be treated (I'm not talking here about you Silvershadowwolf24). These politicians, these self proclaimed dog experts really need to take a cold hard look at themselves in the bathroom mirror and accept that if they have no experience then they should just shut up. They have nothing to add; they are just barking. They seem to think that if they have some experience with golden retrievors or Hungarian pulis, that makes them an expert on American Pit Bull Terriers. I don't pretend to know much about Hungarian pulis (they've got dreadlocks, right?) or Saint Bernards (they carry a small barrel of cheap brandy around their necks?) but I know a bit about APBTs and they are not the difficult dog breed that these people think they are. They are just dogs.

    Should everyone own a pit bull? No, probably not, just like not everyone should own a labrador or a kelpie. Vilifying the breed for the failings of the human owner is an all too common human failing, and it smacks of failure to accept responsibility. Your dog, your problem, your responsibility. Not that hard to understand really.

    Cheers,

    ricey
    The APBT is the best of the best dogs (but it is just a dog, like any other breed of dog)

    My avatar? It's a pit bull in a poodle suit (a bit like me really)

  8. #368
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    when i was a little kid we had 2 x pitbulls, they were the best dog's anyone could ask for. They both used to sleep at the end of my bed (i would even use them as pillows). They tolerated so much tongue pulling, trying to ride them like horses and general kids antics and never once did either of them even growl. I even used to take the bones out of their bowl to make them follow me
    I can't fault those 2 dogs. They loved everyone and saved my dad from getting charged by a pissed off cow many times.

    we made them, now we blame them ? how is that even logical ? same goes for rotties, dobermans and GSD's when they were getting blamed for everything.

    that is just how i think of pitbulls, not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just my own personal experience

  9. #369

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    Here we go again !

    Do these people live in a 'bubble of ............. ( you fill in the blanks !) ?

    Have they not seen what is happening in Victoria with their particular brand of BSL ?
    Can't they not remember what happened on the Gold Coast ? sFun_DeadHorse (1).gif

    Council bites back on restricted dogs and will ban certain breeds | News, events and sport for Pine Rivers and Moreton Bay | The Courier-Mail

    Again the comments are interesting (?) !

  10. #370

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    THE TRAGIC death of a week-old boy who was bitten by a terrier has prompted animal welfare groups to once again call or dangerous dog legislation to be overhauled.
    The Kennel Club said the case showed that any dog had the potential to cause injury, Dogs Trust said it underscored that banning breeds was not effective, and Battersea Dogs and Cats Home said the Dangerous Dogs Act (DDA) should be revised to include private property
    So much for little dogs not being able to cause much injury

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