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Thread: OMG my next door neighbor has bought a red nosed pit bull!!!!

  1. #161

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    Your right, we can go around in circles forever

  2. #162

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    We often do chase our tails when it comes to these topics

    Still , if just one member of the public reads this and goes away 'thinking' about the breed instead of simply 'knowing' what the press etc has told them.

    Then this is one happy little black duck
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  3. #163
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    Maybe we could look at it this way...

    You can do a lot more damage with a Prime mover than with a Barina - but both can be dangerous.

    But is it the fault of the vehicle or the numb skull behind the wheel?

    On humans and genetics and serial killers - apparently there are DNA markers for human aggression / warrior genes or serial killer genes. One poor bloke had all 12 markers for human killer - but he hasn't killed anybody. But his childhood environment was very loving and positive. So he grew up happy and friendly to humans.

    So there are definitely breeds of dogs out there that are capable of inflicting severe damage. There are also some that have the inclination - tho this is usually a combination of genetic tendency and up bringing. But is it really the dog's fault? Before we go down the italian route of banning every breed of dog that can break human skin (most of them), maybe we should look at banning some people from owning dogs and putting the resources into enforcing that. And maybe every dog owner should pay dog injury liability insurance - like we do for cars. And if people don't register or pay the insurance - they can go to jail - like we do for cars.

  4. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me
    I would rather have to take steps to keep my dog away from other dogs than have to figure out how to keep it away from my kids or other humans
    Me too, fortunately the two are not mutually exclusive and there are plenty of breeds that exist that are not prone to aggression towards humans or dogs. You make it seem like it's one or the other when in fact most breeds don't have aggression issues to either species.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    Mosh I'm having a really hard time understanding your 'logic' concerning this breed. For example , you keep stating it's cruel and unethical to be breeding APBT because they are just dog killers with no other place in society.

    Well with that logic , what about the breeds that are bred to be human aggressive ?
    Same logic. Unless they're owned by a security, military, or police force, they've got no place in the average home as a pet, and even then I still think it's unethical to breed them like this. If I had my way all dogs would be multipurpose mongrels, we'd see a lot less genetic problems and a lot less aggression.

    I'd like to make it clear that I don't believe in banning any breed because it causes more problems than it solves, but I do believe in heavy restriction. People should not just be able to go out and aquire any kind of dog they feel like, without being able to prove they can control it and take care of it correctly.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    It sounds as if the only experience/knowledge you have of the APBT is negative,media driven myths and I say that with all respect .
    I have many friends that have 'packs' of Pits living in the home and most of my friends have at least two. Most of these dogs can co exist with other dogs in the family enviroment quite happily. Yes they may be not as dog friendly outside the home but the APBT isn't unique in this trait.

    Are they prone to DA? Yes.
    Can they lead happy , stable lives interacting with other dogs? Of course they can.
    The experience and knowledge I have of the APBT is negative for a reason. No I have never met a pure APBT, but the information gained from the people who love APBT's speaks for itself. They are not trustworthy and they need to be kept under close supervision, that is a fact that is repeated over and over again on every single source I read.

    What you've said here is contradictory. If they're prone to dog aggression then it follows that they can't lead happy stable lives interacting with other dogs, because there's always the shadow of potential aggression hanging over their heads. You have to keep them away from other dogs and never leave them alone with another dog. Why would you want that for your best friend? Why would anyone deliberately breed a dog like this?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChoppaChop View Post
    My Pit girl was killed by none other than the good old Aussie icon,the blue cattle dog . Did it make national news? Nope. Did it make local news? Nope. Did it make it at least to the local paper? Sort of,but breeds wern't mentioned....wonder why that was ?

    And on the flip side by the way , even if this breed were completely untrustworthy around other dogs. It does not make it cruel to continue to breed them. They would still live happy , useful lives within its own family unit. So bluddy what if they cant go to a dog park? I hate the places anyway. Most people I know dislike dog parks. They are very often nothing but a smelter box of fools and accidents just waiting to happen.

    Not having a dog friendly breed is certainly not a reason for it to be wiped away.
    I'm sorry to hear about the death of your dog, that must have been awful for you. Cattle dogs belong on farms - it's just another example of a breed that is unsuitable for suburban pet life being kept as a pet. The APBT is by no means the only breed that has dog aggression issues, but as far as I know it's one of the only breeds who have been deliberately bred with this trait. With other breeds it's just a side effect.

    Discontinuing a breed or breeding it differently is not the same as wiping it away. Adaptation is never a bad thing. And if a dog is more likely to be dog aggressive, it's not that much different from deliberately designing a human to be aggressive towards humans. It's limiting their opportunities in life and ensuring that they don't have the same potential as another dog without the same aggressive tendencies. I just can't conceive of any reason why anyone would want to keep breeding a dog that had a greater likelihood of having aggression problems. It seems totally counterintuitive to me. If you love dogs, wouldn't you want to breed a dog that had a reduced chance of hurting or killing other dogs?
    Last edited by Mosh; 12-14-2012 at 06:49 PM.

  5. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    Is the average APBT that has been brought up in a responsible manner trustworthy around other dogs? Yes! There will be a small percentage that no matter how much socialisation is provided will simply never get on with other dogs, but the percentage wouldn't be significantly higher than many other breeds - exactly the same as the SBT. That is why i directed you to the Michael Vick story, the vast majority of those dogs, who were not only specifically bred to fight but also trained specifically to fight, were able to be rehabilitated into not only normal household pets but therapy dogs also in some cases. I know you are a very knowledgeable person when it comes to dogs and training, i am very surprised at your stance on these type of dogs.
    That is not the message I am getting from APBT clubs and sites all over the internet.

    They do not say "it's possible to get your APBT to be 100% trustworthy around other dogs", they say "NEVER TRUST YOUR PITBULL NOT TO FIGHT".

    There is only one reason why a club devoted to the love of a breed of dog would have such a strong and unambiguous message. I think there was even an anecdote in this very thread by someone who knew a pitbull that had been socialized, but turned out to be aggressive regardless of it's good upbringing. The message I am getting is that the amount of aggressive pitbulls is not a small percentage at all.

    I'm surprised that you're surprised about my stance. I'm a realist, I know that dogs that are bred for a purpose tend to display the behavioural traits that allow them to fulfil that purpose. That's how genetics work. Jack Russells are bred to kill rats, Beagles are bred to hunt foxes and make a lot of noise, Golden retrievers are bred to retrieve things.

    Pitbulls are bred to fight other dogs, therefore they are more likely to want to fight other dogs. But among the pitbull apologists they seem to be exempt from this rule of traits. So we've got no problem saying that an average Retriever will enjoy fetching a stick, but when the subject is pitbulls it suddenly becomes "blame the deed not the breed", as if pitbulls were the one breed that did not perform according to the nature that was deliberately bred into them.
    Last edited by Mosh; 12-14-2012 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Maybe we could look at it this way...

    You can do a lot more damage with a Prime mover than with a Barina - but both can be dangerous.

    But is it the fault of the vehicle or the numb skull behind the wheel?
    Well, it would be the fault of the manufacturer depending on how safely they had designed it. If a car is more likely to be involved in an accident (eg, some 4wd's have a higher centre of gravity and an increased chance to roll), then it's the fault of the person or people who designed it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    On humans and genetics and serial killers - apparently there are DNA markers for human aggression / warrior genes or serial killer genes. One poor bloke had all 12 markers for human killer - but he hasn't killed anybody. But his childhood environment was very loving and positive. So he grew up happy and friendly to humans.
    But what about if someone had deliberately designed this man's genetics to have those 12 markers for homicide? Would it be unethical? Of course it would.

    That is the question nobody wants to answer. It's one thing when it's just an accident of genetics, but what about when it is no accident?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    So there are definitely breeds of dogs out there that are capable of inflicting severe damage. There are also some that have the inclination - tho this is usually a combination of genetic tendency and up bringing. But is it really the dog's fault? Before we go down the italian route of banning every breed of dog that can break human skin (most of them), maybe we should look at banning some people from owning dogs and putting the resources into enforcing that. And maybe every dog owner should pay dog injury liability insurance - like we do for cars. And if people don't register or pay the insurance - they can go to jail - like we do for cars.
    Great idea about the insurance, and of course it's not the dogs' fault. It's the fault of the people who designed the dog to be that way.

    Here's my point as simply as I can put it:

    The APBT is bred for dogfighting. It has been selectively bred to be aggressive to other dogs. If we no longer want it to fight other dogs, why are we still breeding it with dog aggression? Why preserve a trait that at best, serves no purpose, and at worst, causes horrific problems? It is possible to breed APBT's with the same determination, energy, and drive, but without the dog aggression. So why aren't we insisting that every APBT born comes from stock that has been selected for non-aggression?
    Last edited by Mosh; 12-14-2012 at 06:48 PM.

  7. #167

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    You obviously have not had much experience with these breeds. I'd suggest you find some well trained and socialised APBT's and get to know them first hand

  8. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by mymatejack View Post
    You obviously have not had much experience with these breeds. I'd suggest you find some well trained and socialised APBT's and get to know them first hand
    I'm sure they can be very nice dogs if they're trained and socialized by people who know what they're doing, such as Greys4me. However this issue is about selective breed traits and statistical averages, not emotional personal experience. The instructions from the proponents themselves tell us all we need to know: pitbull associations all over the world state that no matter how well trained and socialized a pitbull is, you still should never trust it not to fight.

  9. #169

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    I'm sure they can be very nice dogs if they're trained and socialized by people who know what they're doing, such as Greys4me. However this issue is about selective breed traits and statistical averages, not emotional personal experience. The instructions from the proponents themselves tell us all we need to know: pitbull associations all over the world state that no matter how well trained and socialized a pitbull is, you still should never trust it not to fight.
    I think we do agree on one thing and it is that nor every tom **** and harry see a proper breeder would never let you simply pick up a pup and walk off with it, I know I wouldnt let them when I was breeding. the first litter I bred I kept all 3 of the pups, but then I was breeding for the betterment of the breed not to make money.

  10. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    I'm sure they can be very nice dogs if they're trained and socialized by people who know what they're doing, such as Greys4me. However this issue is about selective breed traits and statistical averages, not emotional personal experience. The instructions from the proponents themselves tell us all we need to know: pitbull associations all over the world state that no matter how well trained and socialized a pitbull is, you still should never trust it not to fight.
    I've known 5 different APBT's, not one of them was dog aggressive. I've known at least 10 SBT's, again not one that was dog aggressive. I have however encountered unknowns of both breeds that, while not exactly dog aggressive, were easily excited into a fight. I've also encountered Labradors, GSD's, American Bulldog, etc etc that were outright dog aggressive. Me thinks you need an education in the real world when it comes to these breeds.

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