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Thread: OMG my next door neighbor has bought a red nosed pit bull!!!!

  1. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me View Post
    This simply isnt true. Non of my dogs were territorial, yes they wanted to fight each other but that was because that is how they are designed not because they were aggressive or territorial.
    This makes no sense. If they want to fight, it means they are aggressive and/or territorial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me View Post
    As far as a APBT being just another dog, well they are dogs but they are not like other dogs they take a lot of work and being very careful but in the right hands they are awesome. When you own a APBT you have to be responsible, never let it off leash, dont go to dog parks, watch for signs that they may pick fights and avoid it, if they dont like dogs dont force it your asking for trouble. Just like greyhounds you wouldnt take a greyhound to a place where there will be small animals running around and let it off leash. Other breeds have things you have to be careful with. JRTs may turn around one day and kill your cat or small pet. DOgs are bred usually for a purpose and when they act on that purpose dont blame the dog blame the owner that wasnt diligent enough to know this and protect the dog from failing.
    If you can't take them to dog parks and should never let it off leash, it's not just another dog and should not be owned by people who aren't highly skilled and experienced. It's pretty clear to anyone who isn't totally biased that pitbulls are a specialized dog breed specifically designed for fighting and aggression, that is not suitable to be an average house pet for average people. All this talk about them being the best breed and just sooooo trustworthy is nonsense. If you can't let it off the lead or trust it not to fight, it's not trustworthy and therefore is not the best breed. I can't imagine owning a dog that I couldn't trust not to be aggressive, that does not sound at all enjoyable or fulfilling. Why on earth would you subject yourself to that?

    If the average person can't safely take care of one, then it should be a restricted breed - just like any other breed that requires specialized training and care.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by ricey View Post
    True, but it is close; when you start breeding a pup to his dam and all your breeding stock are either siblings or first cousins, then your gene pool is nothing better than a dirty puddle. I guess the old joke is "line-breeding is what I do to maintain this magnificent lineage, but in-breeding is what you other breeders do to destroy our breed".

    I am not a dog breeder but I do have tertiary qualifications in the biological sciences and I understand that a tiny breed pool does not augur well for a species or sub-set of that species. I fear the outcome for any breed where there are only 1 or 2 breeding pairs being bred. And from what I know, that is the situation here in WA. I know of 1 breeder personally, and I have been told there are two other breeders here that are breeding pure bred APBTs. Of course, go into any front bar of any hotel here and you will find someone who can sell you a 'pure bre APBT' of Jeep lineage whose sire is a three times champion. And it will have a red nose, cos all real pittys have red noses don't they?

    ricey
    My sister owns 3 APBT's, her dog (which is the eldest) is a perfect example of the breed temperament wise. He is an awesome dog.

    The other two had been inbred between uncles/parents etc by their "breeder" which is some scummy drug dealer in the town I came from and you can tell, they have screws loose upstairs and are should really be PTS. I do not trust them at all. I would avoid dogs that have been inbred.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  3. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    This makes no sense. If they want to fight, it means they are aggressive and/or territorial.
    Well in that case then how do you feel about JRT? Are they aggressive? They were bred to kill and most if given the chance would does that make them bad dogs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    If you can't take them to dog parks and should never let it off leash, it's not just another dog and should not be owned by people who aren't highly skilled and experienced. It's pretty clear to anyone who isn't totally biased that pitbulls are a specialized dog breed specifically designed for fighting and aggression, that is not suitable to be an average house pet for average people. All this talk about them being the best breed and just sooooo trustworthy is nonsense. If you can't let it off the lead or trust it not to fight, it's not trustworthy and therefore is not the best breed. I can't imagine owning a dog that I couldn't trust not to be aggressive, that does not sound at all enjoyable or fulfilling. Why on earth would you subject yourself to that?

    If the average person can't safely take care of one, then it should be a restricted breed - just like any other breed that requires specialized training and care.
    So greyhounds are bad too? Cant take those to the dog park, they chase and can attack small dogs and cats. Your mixing up animal aggression and human aggression. You wont find me saying APBT shoudl be let to run around with other animals but they are a good family dog for people who know the breed and enjoy the breed. I could always trust my APBTs not be aggressive, just because they would fight another dog does not make them human aggressive. They were dog aggressive please dont mix the two because they are totally different things. As far as letting it off lead I dont let any of my dogs off lead and dont really like dog parks (they are an accident waiting to happen) so not being able to do these is fine by me. There are so many breeds that are not only dog aggressive but bite people all the time should be ban all those breeds too?

    Numbers dont lie In the 2011-2012 ATTS results Both APBT (86.8% passed) and Am Staffs (84.2% passed) beat the Aussie cattle dog (79.3% passed) (another breed that can be a bit dog aggro) so do we ban those?

    They also beat Basinji 67.8% passed
    Bloodhound 73.5%
    Boxers 83.4%
    English Bulldog 70.4%
    Chihuahua 68%

    There are many more they beat so what do we do with all these breeds?

    Here is the link if anyone wants to look through.

    ATTS Breed Statistics | American Temperament Test Society, Inc.

  4. #134
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    I do think dog aggression is a liability and inexperienced or irresponsible dog owners should not own a dog aggressive dog. Someone could leave the gate open, the dog could escape, pull itself loose when on a walk, etc.

    But frankly, it surprises me that an APBT fan would be so adamant that APBTs will automatically fight with dogs purely because of their genetic make-up. I've always heard that these dogs can be socialised. They may still be more prone to fight back when attacked, but if socialised from a young age they would not feel the need to attack first.

    Bit of a nature vs nurture thing.

  5. #135
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    The more I listen to what Greys4me has to say about pit bulls, the more I like what I hear.

    The thing is, American Pit Bull Terriers are sound family dogs that are good with kids. Are APBTs good with small furry animals? Nope, probably not. I have lost count of the rats that my Hobbes has killed. There are a few roaming neighbourhood cats that don't roam anymore. Anything in his back yard is fair game. Has Hobbes ever killed or injured an animal outside my yard? Nope, not that I am aware of. I take care of my dogs.

    Are APBTs the first choice for newbie dog owners? Nope, probably not.

    Should a newbie dog owner get a dog with massive drive and strength? Nope, probably not.

    Should newbie dog owners get themselves a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel? Nope, probably not. The chances are that the poor little shit will have syringomyelia and die in agony.

    All breeds have their own considerations. The JRT is colloquially referred to in the US of A as the 'mini pit bull'. But they are fantastic little terriers that do what terriers do. They were bred to kill little furry animals. Basset hounds were bred to kill badgers; go ahead and guess what fox hounds were bred to kill....

    All the stuff that individual dog breeds do, they were designed to do by humans. Is that the dog's fault?

    ricey
    The APBT is the best of the best dogs (but it is just a dog, like any other breed of dog)

    My avatar? It's a pit bull in a poodle suit (a bit like me really)

  6. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beloz View Post
    I do think dog aggression is a liability and inexperienced or irresponsible dog owners should not own a dog aggressive dog. Someone could leave the gate open, the dog could escape, pull itself loose when on a walk, etc.

    But frankly, it surprises me that an APBT fan would be so adamant that APBTs will automatically fight with dogs purely because of their genetic make-up. I've always heard that these dogs can be socialised. They may still be more prone to fight back when attacked, but if socialised from a young age they would not feel the need to attack first.

    Bit of a nature vs nurture thing.
    Ok this is where it gets tricky. Part of the APBTs bad rep comes from people who think it is all in how you raise them. Its not always the case. Case in point. I had a very nice little female Jeep/gator lines and she was raised with her dad her whole life, played with the other pups until age 1 which is when I would not let them just run a muck with other dogs but paired them up with the opposite sex. Well she turned 2 and her whole life changed, her drive turned on and she had to be separated from all dogs from then on.
    This dog was never encouraged to be dog aggro and was raised in the house with the kids and myself and her dad.

    I was fine with it because I was showing and raising dogs from really old lines and they had fire and drive and the will to do anything I asked of them. If you dont want a dog like this fine dont get an APBT but dont get an APBT and expect it to be all roses until it passes of old age. Just like you wouldnt get a working JRT and want to raise ferrets or other furry animals.

    APBTs are working terriers they have drive determination and guts, this can be focused on other things I loved doing weight pulling with mine the never give up attitude no matter what that was bred into them was great for it. Just remember that same attitude can make it so you will have to enjoy your dog with walks alone, and cuddles on the couch.

  7. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me View Post
    Well in that case then how do you feel about JRT? Are they aggressive? They were bred to kill and most if given the chance would does that make them bad dogs?
    I never used the terms good or bad, it's not the dog's fault what it was designed to do. There's no such thing as good or bad in this issue, only "suitable as a pet" and "not suitable as a pet".

    Yes JRT's are aggressive without training and socialization and they are bred to kill small prey animals. I own a JRT cross and she kills every rat and rabbit she can catch. If we had to live off the land, we would not go hungry as long as we had her with us. However a prey instinct towards prey animals is very different to a fighting/killing instinct towards other dogs - members of their own species. A hunting instinct in dogs is normal and healthy, a canicidal instinct is not normal or healthy.

    I would trust a JRT not to fight other dogs and I would trust it off the lead. I would not trust it around small rodents, however the likelihood of it running into any small rodents that I didn't want it to kill are quite low. The JRT's predator instinct does not really impact the dog's social interaction or its ability to accompany me in my day to day life. I can take my JRT wherever I go and trust her not to cause violence. You can not say the same about your pit bull.

    Plus, even the meanest craziest JRT would have difficulty causing fatal damage to a human over the age of 5 or 6. A full grown male pitbull could potentially take down Anthony Mundine. There is a huge difference in power and weight which is impossible to deny. Fighting off a crazed JRT would be pretty easy. Fighting off a crazed APBT would be a fight for your life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me View Post
    So greyhounds are bad too? Cant take those to the dog park, they chase and can attack small dogs and cats. Your mixing up animal aggression and human aggression. You wont find me saying APBT shoudl be let to run around with other animals but they are a good family dog for people who know the breed and enjoy the breed. I could always trust my APBTs not be aggressive, just because they would fight another dog does not make them human aggressive. They were dog aggressive please dont mix the two because they are totally different things. As far as letting it off lead I dont let any of my dogs off lead and dont really like dog parks (they are an accident waiting to happen) so not being able to do these is fine by me. There are so many breeds that are not only dog aggressive but bite people all the time should be ban all those breeds too?
    Again, I never used the words good or bad, what a dog is bred to do is not its fault.

    You could not trust your pit bulls not to be aggressive, because you already said they would fight other dogs if given a chance. The desire to fight is called aggression. Categorizing it into aggression towards people or animals is just deliberately confusing the issue.

    Dog parks are not an accident waiting to happen. I frequently take my dog to lots of parks and she has never been badly attacked in her 7 years. She is trained to be friendly to other dogs, and to return to me if another dog becomes too excited or aggro. Dogs will snap at each other occasionally and grab each other's necks while running, but this is very different from the type of fight a pitbull is designed for. Snapping and growling is communication. A fight to the death is not. A normal dog will not have an urge to maim and kill other dogs.

    Logically you would not be able to do the same things with a APBT as you would be able to do with another dog, such as leave them outside a shop or walk them off lead. You must always be aware of the potential to fight and kill other dogs. The APBT dog is not a multipurpose companion dog, it is a specialized fighting breed that must be given special treatment. I also do not agree with breeding greyhounds to be so prey fixated that they will kill small dogs, but this discussion is about APBT's not greyhounds.

    Whether it's typically human aggressive or not doesn't really matter so much as asking: is it aggressive at all? If it's aggressive to members of its own species, it's a bit illogical to assume it won't show any aggression whatsoever to a different species. You say "please don't mix the two" and you talk like it's impossible for pitbulls to be aggressive towards humans, but it's not exactly impossible for them to be human-aggressive. A human-aggressive pitbull is not a rarity - many people use them as guard dogs.

    You are trying to portray them as dog aggressive and totally human-safe, without acknowledging them as dog aggressive by default, with a potential for human aggression. So what if other breeds are also potentially aggressive? This doesn't make the APBT any better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Greys4me View Post
    Numbers dont lie In the 2011-2012 ATTS results Both APBT (86.8% passed) and Am Staffs (84.2% passed) beat the Aussie cattle dog (79.3% passed) (another breed that can be a bit dog aggro) so do we ban those?

    They also beat Basinji 67.8% passed
    Bloodhound 73.5%
    Boxers 83.4%
    English Bulldog 70.4%
    Chihuahua 68%

    There are many more they beat so what do we do with all these breeds?
    I never said ban them, I said restrict them. A dog is a powerful predator animal, just because it is domesticated does not mean it's ok for any average Joe Shmo to own any breed he wants. We are not hunter gatherers any more, and the time when most people used their dogs for hunting and protection is over. We now live in an artificial environment but we still want to own these powerful predator animals from times past.

    I respect your right to own powerful fighting breeds like Pitbulls, but you should be able to prove that you are able to control them totally and that there is no possibility of an accident. If you are capable of controlling them at all times then there's no reason for you not to own one.

    IMO all powerful breeds of dog should be heavily restricted and only people with proven capability should be allowed to breed and own them.

  8. #138

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    I don't get why there are forums all over the internet full of people claiming to be dog lovers, who then fawn over the one breed that is more likely to commit canicide than any other breed. Shouldn't we be able to recognize that it's cruel to breed an animal that wants to kill members of its own species? As a dog person I am apalled that people have deliberately bred a dog in this way.

    What would we say about the equivalent human? "Oh, Andrew can't be trusted with other humans because he might bludgeon them to death with a crowbar, but he's totally safe with dogs and cats". How happy would Andrew's life be, isolated from other people and unable to form relationships with members of his own species? What if someone had deliberately designed Andrew to be homicidal? Wouldn't that be considered evil?

    Dogs are social pack animals, they benefit from friendship and form strong bonds with other dogs. They have a deep and complicated level of communication with each other which makes them happy and fulfilled. I think breeding them to want to maim and kill each other is a crime against nature.

    If you don't want your pitbull to fight and it spends its entire life in isolation from other dogs, what's the point of the breed at all? If they're such a fantastic breed then why not start breeding them with a goal to eliminate the aggression entirely?
    Last edited by Mosh; 12-12-2012 at 12:27 AM.

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    What would we say about the equivalent human? "Oh, Andrew can't be trusted with other humans because he might bludgeon them to death with a crowbar, but he's totally safe with dogs and cats". How happy would Andrew's life be, isolated from other people and unable to form relationships with members of his own species? What if someone had deliberately designed Andrew to be homicidal? Wouldn't that be considered evil?
    Do we not have plenty of humans like this filling jails around the world. They were born just as innocent as any other baby in the nursury.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricey View Post
    The thing is, American Pit Bull Terriers are sound family dogs that are good with kids. Are APBTs good with small furry animals? Nope, probably not. I have lost count of the rats that my Hobbes has killed. There are a few roaming neighbourhood cats that don't roam anymore. Anything in his back yard is fair game. Has Hobbes ever killed or injured an animal outside my yard? Nope, not that I am aware of. I take care of my dogs.
    I've seen plenty of APBT's that are perfectly fine with any small animal. My dogs live quite harmoniously with my kitten and Bella plays rough and tumble daily with Molly. Birds we don't have so much luck, but I encouraged them to chase birds when they were younger, so who's fault is that.

    Again I see to much generalisation. Not every APBT will be dog aggressive, not every APBT will want to kill any dog it see's. Yes it is in its blood but with enough dedication it can be trained and managed. When we had our dog day out there was an APBT at the dog park walking around (on leash) with its Chihuahua buddy. I didn't see it try and kill any dog in that park that day.

    There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face.

  10. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    What would we say about the equivalent human? "Oh, Andrew can't be trusted with other humans because he might bludgeon them to death with a crowbar, but he's totally safe with dogs and cats". How happy would Andrew's life be, isolated from other people and unable to form relationships with members of his own species? What if someone had deliberately designed Andrew to be homicidal? Wouldn't that be considered evil?
    There are people like this actually they are in jail and many times get out to offend again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    Dogs are social pack animals, they benefit from friendship and form strong bonds with other dogs. They have a deep and complicated level of communication with each other which makes them happy and fulfilled. I think breeding them to want to maim and kill each other is a crime against nature.
    Actually they were not bred to kill each other that is something that humane societies put in peoples heads, yes they did get hurt and would rarely die from injuries but the point wasnt to have 2 dogs fight to the death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    If you don't want your pitbull to fight and it spends its entire life in isolation from other dogs, what's the point of the breed at all? If they're such a fantastic breed then why not start breeding them with a goal to eliminate the aggression entirely?
    People did and they are called AM Staffs which you can see again not as many passed as APBT. Why do I like the breed? Easy they are far superior to any other breed with my children. They are awesome with people this is why I like them, they are not a large dog (mine ran 28-35 pounds), easy to groom and keep clean. Have determination like no other breed of dog I have known they are beautiful.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    Yes JRT's are aggressive without training and socialization and they are bred to kill small prey animals. I own a JRT cross and she kills every rat and rabbit she can catch. If we had to live off the land, we would not go hungry as long as we had her with us. However a prey instinct towards prey animals is very different to a fighting/killing instinct towards other dogs - members of their own species. A hunting instinct in dogs is normal and healthy, a canicidal instinct is not normal or healthy.
    Oh you haven't seen some of the JRTs I have seen but being a vet tech and dog trainer we get to see a lot more than the average person. I love JRT dont get me wrong but they are a much higher liability than APBTs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    I would trust a JRT not to fight other dogs and I would trust it off the lead. I would not trust it around small rodents, however the likelihood of it running into any small rodents that I didn't want it to kill are quite low. The JRT's predator instinct does not really impact the dog's social interaction or its ability to accompany me in my day to day life. I can take my JRT wherever I go and trust her not to cause violence. You can not say the same about your pit bull.


    Plus, even the meanest craziest JRT would have difficulty causing fatal damage to a human over the age of 5 or 6. A full grown male pitbull could potentially take down Anthony Mundine. There is a huge difference in power and weight which is impossible to deny. Fighting off a crazed JRT would be pretty easy. Fighting off a crazed APBT would be a fight for your life.
    So what happens when a person JRT off leash runs into a cat and catches it then kills it? See here is where you are missing my point there should be no reason to have to fight off a crazed APBT they should not under any circumstances want to harm a human. If they do its easy solution destroy the dog and move on. We have to set very high standards with the APBT if it acts funny with a human it goes down, no ifs and or butts because this breed is suppose to be rock solid with humans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    You could not trust your pit bulls not to be aggressive, because you already said they would fight other dogs if given a chance. The desire to fight is called aggression. Categorizing it into aggression towards people or animals is just deliberately confusing the issue.
    I dont care about my dogs running around with fluffy and having a good time though. I dont feel the need to show off a APBT at dog parks, I am happy enjoying the dogs showing them, going to the beach with them, doing weight pull with them having them cuddle with the children at night.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosh View Post
    Whether it's typically human aggressive or not doesn't really matter so much as asking: is it aggressive at all? If it's aggressive to members of its own species, it's a bit illogical to assume it won't show any aggression whatsoever to a different species. You say "please don't mix the two" and you talk like it's impossible for pitbulls to be aggressive towards humans, but it's not exactly impossible for them to be human-aggressive. A human-aggressive pitbull is not a rarity - many people use them as guard dogs.



    You are trying to portray them as dog aggressive and totally human-safe, without acknowledging them as dog aggressive by default, with a potential for human aggression. So what if other breeds are also potentially aggressive? This doesn't make the APBT any better.
    I would guess the number of ADBA registered APBTs involved in an attack on a human is little to none. These "pit bulls" involved in attacks are usually some sort of mix and that is really unfair. I would like to see the registration papers on these attacks because most are just mutts being labeled because they have big heads. I am not talking about some backyard bred mutt I am talking about real registered APBT I wish they would just change the name because then people can have their crazy mutts call them pit bulls to look tough and then the APBT can be renamed it would save a lot of confusion

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