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Thread: 9 years old - had a litter?

  1. #1
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    Question 9 years old - had a litter?

    Hi guys,

    Not an expert on breeding so thought I'd pop over here and ask a question.
    I posted about my fiances piano student looking for a BC litter. http://www.dogforum.com.au/general-d...-breeders.html
    He told me he found a litter (3 weeks old) but that the bitch is 9 years old and asked if that was "too old?" Now I have no idea so I thought I'd ask you guys.

    Are there rules about age restrictions for breeding? Can there be health complications for pups from older dams?

    Let me know your thoughts...

  2. #2
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    Apparantly the ANKC has a 12 month minimum and im pretty sure they reccomend 6 litters in a bitches lifetime although SOME breed groups reccomend 4 litters but if breeders get a clean bill of health from their vet for the bitch, they can have more litters without a maximum... with vet cert.

    And ANKC has i think a 5yr upper breeding reccomendation but again if breeders get a vet health check i think they are allowed to breed as long as they want, as i didnt see an upper limit for registrations of puppies.

    So yeah, IMO its open slather and pretty darn irresponsible to have "regulations" but with as many outs as you care to take advantage of.
    Are the puppies registered?, if so it must be ok by the breed group and ANKC.

    As for the health implications, I cant help you there as I would never subject a 9 year old to giving birth.

    IMO, 9 years old (63 in human years)is not responsible breeding, nor a responsible breeder.$$$$$ Ka Ching!!

    Vets reccomend bitches should only breed between the ages of 2 yrs and no later than 6 years, less for some breeds and later for those breeds with genetic disorders.
    Last edited by cavalierqld; 06-13-2012 at 01:34 AM.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
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  3. #3
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    I checked the BC breed club for Victoria but they do not have a code of ethics online. The BC club NSW do have a code of ethics but no upper limit....

    1.
    Breed only for the purpose of maintaining or improving the standard of the Border Collie.

    2.
    Breed my dogs/bitch only when mature (dogs from approx 12 months and bitches from approx 18 months).

    3.
    Hip & elbow score all my breeding stock prior to breeding from them (applicable to animals whelped after 1 January 2001).

    4.
    Breed only from dogs that have been DNA tested for CL (and TNS when the test is available) before breeding or are known to be clear by parentage.

    5.
    Only ever breed litters which have at least one parent DNA normal for CL (and TNS when the test is available).

    6.
    Ensure that one parent of every litter is DNA clear for CEA either by testing or by parentage.

    7.
    Not allow my bitch to have a second litter within 12 months of a previous litter except under extenuating circumstances.

    8.
    Rest my bitch for at least 12 months following her having two litters within 12 months.

    9.
    Register all Border Collie puppies bred by me with the appropriate State governing body for purebred dogs (eg, Dogs NSW).

    So apparantly it appears to be acceptable???
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  4. #4
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    There is a minimum age limit (and maximum age limit soon to be introduced) which this bitch has exceeded. However is the litter registered and are the breeders registered, if they are not they will not incur any penalty regardless.

    A vet can clear a breeders bitch for breeding above the age limit (soon to be introduced), (or over the 6 litters) and this must be submitted to the ANKC in your state by the breeder.

    4C. A member shall not breed a bitch causing it to whelp more than six times without PRIOR veterinary cert of fitness for further breeding and without PRIOR approval of the Board of Directors.

    Is 9 too old, probably but it would depend on the bitch in question, I've had bitches that while I would never breed from them at that age would of coped very well. If this is her first litter then yes it's totally wrong if it's not then it depends on the bitches health, I've seen some 9yo dogs that are puppy like at this age and others that are only 2 or 3 that seem old. A lot depends on the lines, I've always had slow maturers no matter what breed I seem to get into.

    The BC club can have whatever code of ethics it wants for their club, but these will be overruled by the ANKC; or perhaps a better way of putting it is that the BC Club is not where you register your dogs and litters so they really have no need to state the obvious rules laid out by Dogs VIC but can have rules in addition to the ANKC's which they like their members to uphold, not all BC breeders are a member of their breed club, it's not mandatory. Some clubs offer little and breeders choose not to be a member. I was hardly ever a member of the Kelpie club as it didn't offer me much but I was still a registered breeder.
    Last edited by MAC; 06-13-2012 at 11:43 AM.

  5. #5
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    I don't know for sure, most info out there is about the health of the bitch - ie there are much greater risks to the health of a bitch having puppies when she's older.

    But I suspect - based on what happens to older human mums - that they have increased chance of having an unhealthy baby as well. Just because all the equipment - body parts are not in their prime - and may not be able to produce the healthiest baby. There is an increased risk of things like downs syndrome with older mums. And heart complications and lots of expensive bad stuff. They may get lucky and have a perfectly healthy baby but lots of older women have babies with problems that might not have occurred if the mother were younger.

    So when a puppy is little - you can't really tell if it has problems with the brain and internal organs. But does your friend really want to take that chance?

  6. #6
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    You also can't really equate a bitch and a human, the fertility is entirely different. A bitch doesn't really have a fertility time limit as such and will have seasons their entire life regardless of age and their fitness is mostly different from a humans. Eg. Most dogs do not need to be reminded or made to do exercise and most do not suffer sore muscles etc after a bit of strenuous exercise, it comes naturally t them.

    Is 9 too old? only a health examination of the bitch in question could really answer that question and quite simply asking the owner of the bitch why they are breeding a litter from this bitch at this age.

    Most of my bitches are around 3 - 3.5yrs of age before breeding, I'm told by the majority of vets that that is leaving it too late.

    But as the person who lives with the bitch I know that this age for my breed seems more suitable than the younger age the vets prefer because I have to look at not just whether the bitch is physically fit but if she is mentally ready for motherhood.
    Last edited by MAC; 06-13-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  7. #7

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    Well - as others have raised the points regarding right or wrong in breeding with a bitch this old is good or not - I'll leave that part alone !

    It really is a moot point at this stage ! The pups are already on the ground and 3 weeks old.

    So - information that I would be needing to allay my fears of purchasing an unhealthy pup, would be:

    1. Have the parents of the pups been health tested ? If so - what was tested and what were the results ?

    This link :Breeds by Groups - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney - lists common health problems with Border Collies - and some of the health issues are very serious ones and sadly still in some lines of BCs in Australia.

    2. Is the breeder a registered breeder either with Dogs Victoria or a Working Breed Group ? Links below:

    http://www.dogsvictoria.org.au/AboutUs/AboutDOGSVictoria.aspx

    http://www.bordercollie.org.au/

    If the breeder is registered, then there would be a pedigree available where you can get information on parents, grandparents etc. - which is always helpful. If the breeder is a good one - then they will be more than willing to talk about their dogs and previous litters and answer all and any questions asked.

    There are also standards that are available through the above links - so you know that what you are buying is what it should be !

    The above is just a start - hope it is useful !

  8. #8
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    Thanks heaps for all this information. It's always great to learn about something new.

    I also wondered if perhaps it was the same as with humans - the older, the greater health risks.

    I will pass on the information. I am told the people breeding have also got other BC's that are having litters and are pedigrees and the stud has working titles but I'm pretty sure the stud of this litter is a different one.

  9. #9
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    From what I can see, in general vets and specialists reccomend breeding from age 2yrs (later for those breeds with serious and early undetectable genetic conditions) and no later than 6 years.

    That is the common consensus, so other than monetary values, I am not sure why anyone would want to mate a dog outside these ages, it is certainly not in the dogs best interest?

    Uterine inertia is a condition which can occur more often in older preggie females.
    The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
    Mohandas Gandhi

  10. #10
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    An ANKC registered breeder is not supposed to let their ANKC registered dogs or bitches mate with any bitches or dogs that are not ANKC registered and of the same breed.

    This does sound like an oops litter in a bitch that should have been better supervised or desexed.

    Not the kind of thing I'd want to encourage by giving them money for a puppy.

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