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Thread: First time breeder in need of advise

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Our branch of the KC has a few things in it's constitution I'd call "restraint of trade" eg If I'm a member of them - and they're the only ones running agility competitions (affiliated clubs) then technically I can't enter a trial run by anyone else. Not good. I don't know if QLD has the same rules but it's pretty routine for people to enter with the other mob.
    Yes here you can enter with who you like and no one cares

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Our branch of the KC has a few things in it's constitution I'd call "restraint of trade" eg If I'm a member of them - and they're the only ones running agility competitions (affiliated clubs) then technically I can't enter a trial run by anyone else. Not good. I don't know if QLD has the same rules but it's pretty routine for people to enter with the other mob.
    There are actualy quite a few rules that I think could be used to argue a good case under fair trade laws. But I think you would need a solicitor able to argue the case I've put here very well. With an ability to under stand biophysics well enough to argue this in acourt of law. And with a lot of time to research, money etc. Because of the way the K.Cs are organised along the lines of a club, where any one can join.....they just have to sign on to the same values. After all, you can always go start your own club, or registry.

    You have to be able to prove there is disadvantage. I think the only way is through that rule against members breeding a dog registered with that org, that won't be eligible for a record of pedigree with them. The source of the problem.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-24-2015 at 10:33 PM.

  3. #43

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    Not so much here, so far. Other countries are becoming very intolerant, and there are some pretty serious laws in many countries.
    I think there is one place that has simply banned dog breeding there. I guess to own one, you get it shipped or buy from a dealer.
    The countries managing best from a purely welfare perspective seem to be cultures where personal responsibility has always been encouraged, and less pressure on people to spey etc.
    The K.Cs ruled against their own environment. Thats people breeding for their own needs, in their OWN environment, for their OWN purpose, in their OWN backyards. My research tells me "The rule" will work on all cultures to the same end, but how it happens and time it takes will vary on the culture its working in.

    For every action there is an equall and opposite reaction. So whats going to happen, here in Auss. when the K.Cs won't allow a breeder any credibility unless they are breeding within the K.Cs?
    If the breeding in the K.Cs gets tighter and tighter, more aware of the science and rules to avoid problems, more scruiny of whats being bred?

    The opposit of thats what you are seeing. Because no breeder working outside of the registries is allowed any credence. Its pretty hard trying to do some thing of value if all you get for your efforts is disgust, no matter how well you do it. The people that doesn't get to are the ones who couldn't care less if people think the product is worthless, so long as they profit. Registration and documentation is pretty much expected to give authenticity these days, if you are trying to defend yourself. So the the basics of biology, experience and mentors are few and far between.
    If you still want to keep breeding something people value after all the crap you have to put up with, The K.Cs and signing on to the values that keep you down is pretty much the only option. Believe me, it gets nasty.

    If the K.Cs are strangling in protocols and ever tightening lines, then the community is loose and spinning wild. Thats not meeting demands either, its an easier target with no organisation behind it and legislation WILL follow, especialy when the commercial breeders are more powerful. If this is allowed to continue.

    Hobby breeders, Registered or not will be the meat in the sandwich in any battle between the K.Cs and commercial breeders. Culled to achieve perfection. Dog breeding will not be done in the community, by the community, for the community.

    Working dogs in rural settings should be able to hold out much longer, but in the end, the new expectations of the accepted way to keep dogs would affect them too.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-25-2015 at 09:26 AM.

  4. #44
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    "Working dogs in rural settings should be able to hold out much longer, but in the end, the new expectations of the accepted way to keep dogs would affect them too."

    Nahhh, these folks have been supplying my gorgeous dogs for years, healthy, pure bred, not a paper between them. Working dogs, rarely have time to attend shows lol

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by bernie View Post
    "Working dogs in rural settings should be able to hold out much longer, but in the end, the new expectations of the accepted way to keep dogs would affect them too."

    Nahhh, these folks have been supplying my gorgeous dogs for years, healthy, pure bred, not a paper between them. Working dogs, rarely have time to attend shows lol
    The greyhound industry is finding if the community has no involvement, is given no stake, or can't recognise the value in the dogs purpose, what they do holds no value to the community.
    The community has the same expectations for welfare of any "breed". If it can be shown there are breaches in community standards, any group will eventualy be targeted to fall into line. As long as groups insist on separating what they do from anyone else, So will the community. The group as whole will be jointly accountable. Not societies failings.

    If you insist what you do puts you into a group of your own, apart from the "common" man, The common man can't help but see you the same. Any consquences of being seen as separate from the whole are your own responsibility. They are a consequence of your own choices.

    They could choose to see a shared responsibility to the ideal of a single species thats evolved in an almost sybiotic partnership with modern Man.

    If the community wants dogs, but we don't allow or encourage it take responsibility for them, commerce will.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-25-2015 at 05:49 PM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by bernie View Post
    "Working dogs in rural settings should be able to hold out much longer, but in the end, the new expectations of the accepted way to keep dogs would affect them too."

    Nahhh, these folks have been supplying my gorgeous dogs for years, healthy, pure bred, not a paper between them. Working dogs, rarely have time to attend shows lol
    I think there was quite a strong lobby from the working breeders in Victoria when the new laws around breeding were coming into existance to try and crack down on puppy mills. Some of the requirements were totally inpractical for breeders of working dogs. The RSPCA I think was one of the main advisors to the government on the new rules, not sure how much influence the KC had.

    One example was that the dogs have to have play enrichment every day. So a dog that had been workng sheep all day was then obliged to have a ball game or game of tug or whatever, daily records of this had to be kept. You couldnt breed a male dog past 6 years old thus risking the loss of major working genetics, each dog had to have its own water bowl, so no more jumping into troughs etc. I think they managed to get quite a few changes made, but it took a lot of effort.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-25-2015 at 11:06 AM.

  7. #47

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    good for them!

    Maybe they should be the ones to expand into a purpose based registry, for the Whole community. To encourage breeding for the environments, all of them as one. That would give them/us clout!
    A registry based on sustainable and beneficial science in favour of the environment. Those values are what we ALL need to be influenced by. And all you need to do is write them into the constitution to set them in their direction.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-25-2015 at 11:49 AM.

  8. #48
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    I doubt working breeders have any interest in dog breeding in the wider community. They are for the most part running farms and concentrating on working dogs and working traits. Their registries have assessors that are purely focussed on livestock working traits. Very much a world away from the pet owning community. They have no interest in the affairs of anyone breeding dogs that dont work livestock.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I doubt working breeders have any interest in dog breeding in the wider community. They are for the most part running farms and concentrating on working dogs and working traits. Their registries have assessors that are purely focussed on livestock working traits. Very much a world away from the pet owning community. They have no interest in the affairs of anyone breeding dogs that dont work livestock.
    Yeah, that was more a hypothetical musing.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I think there was quite a strong lobby from the working breeders in Victoria when the new laws around breeding were coming into existance to try and crack down on puppy mills. Some of the requirements were totally inpractical for breeders of working dogs. The RSPCA I think was one of the main advisors to the government on the new rules, not sure how much influence the KC had.

    One example was that the dogs have to have play enrichment every day. So a dog that had been workng sheep all day was then obliged to have a ball game or game of tug or whatever, daily records of this had to be kept. You couldnt breed a male dog past 6 years old thus risking the loss of major working genetics, each dog had to have its own water bowl, so no more jumping into troughs etc. I think they managed to get quite a few changes made, but it took a lot of effort.
    Why?
    Why would a working dog need a game of ball when its finished its work for the day? I am unsure of the goal that is trying to be achieved in this?

    And why would each dog have its own water bowl?

    And why cant a male breed past 6yrs of age? Is that coz the sperm like in humans, starts throwing defected offspring past middle age?

    I am happy to follow a guideline that makes logical sense, and perhaps there is sound logic behind these requirements i cannot see immediatelY?

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