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Thread: First time breeder in need of advise

  1. #31
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    I've heard stories of people buying a "pedigree" schmoodle or similar and then trying to enter it in championship shows. Oh dear.

    I wonder how often that happens.

  2. #32
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    What are the values of KC's. Im talking international KC's everywhere.

    Its certainly a very 'disconnected from values' organisation IMO. I left KC/Show/Comp world a long time ago. It is so corrupt, its sickening. And the dog breeds future, is put at risk, by breeding in fault lines for asthetics. Sick, so sick.

  3. #33

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    As I understand the science,The only values an organization can hold are those written into its rules and constitution.

    As a registry only, those values would mean using the history, in the form of a record for a class of dog recognised as a pure breed with that organisation, to further its improvement. Any breeder of dogs would benefit from the promotion of those values

    It would influence others to also value improvement and knowledge through an understanding of a breeds foundations, or what came before, As recorded. That goal, the keeping of records to USE for improvement in pure breeds is the value. New breeds would be created through promotion of that value, according to peoples needs. The organisation would grow, as people find new ways to value dogs and new breeds to do that with. The species would evolve along with its environment. It needs to, because the environment is not stable. Its fluid. An organisms response to its environment allows it to adapt...or not. But if it has response-ability, it will. Thats what responsibility boils down to. Our ability to respond favourably to our environment, to the best of our ability and understanding.. Diversity is essential to that ability. To finding the best, most benificial ways of doing that.

    Fixing traits, or mind sets, reduces our ability to respond.

    They would be an organization whos values are improvement and knowledge of dogs through understanding their foundations. Through records. And encourage us all to do the same. To take responsibility for knowledge. All just from being a registry only.

    But thats not where most of them stopped. In ruling that members are NOT permitted to breed out side of that system, they pronounce a judgement on what lies out side as being antagonistic to their goals. They will have no part of it. They have written antagonism and hostility into their constitution. It comes from within.
    As far as I'm aware, that ruling is world wide with the majority of well established, accepted registries. It places limmits on how that recorded history can be used and changes the context of the charter. Its no longer just about using records to improve breeds. Its about keeping breeds untainted by hostile "agents" from out side the registries recognition. About keeping pure breeds "pure". Thats not the way all members will think...but thats the only value truely supported by the organisations charter, so thats the value that will achieve dominance in leadership. Unless the members force a vote for a change in those rules to reflect different values, or the org. is rejected by its environment.

    That rule implies that their registry is all that any of us need. That they assume responsibility. If they can't, they won't meet their environments demands and either will be rejected, or an alternative will replace them.

    They CAN'T be a registry only with that implied promise. So when things get hot and theres pressure from the environment, (community) they have to keep adding more rules and regs. to over come hostility. But if the environment is seen as hostile, those rules will express that.
    So rules are designed more to keep the troublesome elements of the environment (or community) out, or away from what they produce, than to meet its needs.

    According to what I understand of the field, If dog breeding should only take place within that org, that is now like a biological direction to that org. It will serve to remove breeding out side of what THEY hold and recognise.

    I'm not a biophysicist, there aren't many of them. Still, I'm pretty confident my understanding of biophysics shows me just how this is happening.

    I appologise for the editing, a very slow computer and I keep timing out, makes it very slow and I'm trying to find the right words with out too many.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-23-2015 at 11:51 AM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    I've heard stories of people buying a "pedigree" schmoodle or similar and then trying to enter it in championship shows. Oh dear.

    I wonder how often that happens.
    Now that is funny.

    Last week on The Project CH 10...a woman bought a French Bulldog puppy from a pet shop...paid $4000...took pup to the vet and vet said it's not 100% French Bulldog...woman had a DNA test and sure enough had 5 other breeds in it...plans to sue pet shop.

    Puppy looked like it had a skin problem too and cross breed...what do you expect when you buy a dog from a pet shop. The Project also said that puppy millers fly puppies allover Australia and get the pet shop to fill in the ownership papers (which is illegal) so it's near impossible to trace the original breeder...what lowlifes.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  5. #35
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    The follow up story to the woman who paid 4K and got a mixed breed - were the two who wanted a puppy right now and paid over 4000 each for imaginary French bulldogs from Cootamundra. Some woman there has been arrested for fraud.

    People - if you want a puppy - it pays to do your research - check sources other than the testimonials on the breeders website and to remember gumtree only works for face to face transactions.

  6. #36
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    'That rule implies that their registry is all that any of us need. That they assume responsibility. If they can't, they won't meet their environments demands and either will be rejected, or an alternative will replace them.'

    so, lets see, as far as i know, we are heading into 200+ years for most KC's around the world, all of which have failed the above, and yet.... still in power.

    I have this much respect for KC's motives, values and so called expertise ><

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by bernie View Post
    'That rule implies that their registry is all that any of us need. That they assume responsibility. If they can't, they won't meet their environments demands and either will be rejected, or an alternative will replace them.'

    so, lets see, as far as i know, we are heading into 200+ years for most KC's around the world, all of which have failed the above, and yet.... still in power.

    I have this much respect for KC's motives, values and so called expertise ><
    Yep, still influencing culture and how we view dogs in society, after all these years.
    BUT.... There are more and more registries popping up trying to fill gaps in needs. Most don't have any real chance of competing for dominance with such an established body. They are slapped down by counter demands from the K.Cs. in the form of demands to make it harder to do any thing "wrong" in breeding dogs. According to their rules and constitution, thats anything that takes place outside of their own membership. In the process, they also make it harder for themselves, gradualy diminishing their own environment in the proccess.

    By pushing for more exacting and stringent legislation to prevent people from doing the wrong things, under a banner of "Ethics" to avoid welfare problems we all feel we should support. Making it harder for people to breed in their own backyards,with dogs kept as companions 1st in family situations, though thats preciscely the environment Domestic dogs were supported to evolve in. Thats their foundation and natural environment. And studies show is the most successful model.

    In the eyes of society, a pedigree dog is just form of domestic dog. The records kept in the form of a pedigree, a piece of paper realy, can't separate them from their species. So they CAN'T be exempt from our expectations and legislation.

    The new kids on the block are the commercial breeders. No amount of legislation is going to budge them, because its a market driven society and while people are prepared to pay big dollars for dogs, the more commercial breeders will be able to finance any amount of srtingent demands to ensure compliance with the regulations. And most of us push for more regulation whever we are confronted with the results of a failure to act responsibly. Because for the most part,we ARE a society very concerned with welfare. And legislation reduces our own responsibility for those failures.

    Its not the membership of the K.Cs thats at fault. Its in the constitution that sets out their values like a biological blue print for direction. They are not the only organisation that has made the mistake of ruling against their environment by a long shot. But if they could recognise the mistake and rectify it, that could set an example of responsibility that changes the future of domestic dogs and the world.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-23-2015 at 11:53 AM.

  8. #38

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    For an example of how K.Cs rulings work more to keep the environment at a distance, rather than meet its needs, take this rule, made after the K.Cs were accused of supporting members who bred for profit rather than improvement of the breeds.

    ( not exact wording here, i'd have to check on that)

    "No breeder shall breed primarily for profit"

    Sounds fair at a glance. We don't think commercial breeders fit the profile of responsible breeders, so we'll keep them out. Right?
    But its superfluous and a negative instruction.( You won't) Both advised against in the writing of a successful constitution.

    Its superfluous because there is already a positive instruction directing members to improve the breeds as a primary goal and value.

    Being negative, it will limmit direction, by limmiting a members abilities to profit from that improvement. If other members feel one is profiting from their breeding program, doing too well for their liking, It may give them an opening to censure that member. For bringing in an antagonistic influence to their goals.

    Profit is best achieved by meeting demands.

    To write a successful constitution, we are advised to use language to keep it basic, simple and clear to avoid confusion or altering the meaning and values.
    To avoid negative instruction because it will can only have a negative influence on direction.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-23-2015 at 12:28 PM.

  9. #39
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    Our branch of the KC has a few things in it's constitution I'd call "restraint of trade" eg If I'm a member of them - and they're the only ones running agility competitions (affiliated clubs) then technically I can't enter a trial run by anyone else. Not good. I don't know if QLD has the same rules but it's pretty routine for people to enter with the other mob.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    By pushing for more exacting and stringent legislation to prevent people from doing the wrong things, under a banner of "Ethics" to avoid welfare problems we all feel we should support. Making it harder for people to breed in their own backyards,with dogs kept as companions 1st in family situations, though thats preciscely the environment Domestic dogs were supported to evolve in. Thats their foundation and natural environment. And studies show is the most successful model.
    I dont think it stops anyone breeding their family pet in the backyard, I think it is mainly targetting people with more than 2 or 3 bitches. I have seen plenty bitches bred in backyards over the years with often not the best results for the puppies. Gets back to the whole lack of knowledge and poor reasons that people breed their pets. Problem is you want a pup from a favourite dog but when 10 come along you have to find homes from them. I remember a friend's girlfriend bred her rather nasty tempered bitch because she wanted it to have a litter and a pup from her. The litter was a disaster. We got a few problem pups and their owners come through our dog club looking for help, goodness knows what happened to the rest. A terrible breeding. I hate it when people breed family pets with no good reason or knowledge, russian roulette really.

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