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Thread: First time breeder in need of advise

  1. #21
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    oops, so that's dogman and bernie sent for time out lol

    yeah, i sure was aggressive. Unusual for me. Im too close to flashbacks of pounds, and hideously bred dogs, with overshot, undershot jaws, feet pointing in all different directions. What an expense these dogs will be.

    I think of Brian, BYB: skin complaints, bladder issues, not trained as bought as a 'gaurd dog', and 1yr after rehoming, his junkie previous owner rings me to ask if i have a pup to sell him of Brians any time soon? As he wants to breed them now. BYB cycle i guess. Too close to home = my emotive hostile response. Emotive responses are often from our core, honest, unwelcome etc etc

  2. #22

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    Yeah, Its easy to let our passions rule our responses and after Brian, this thread was guaranteed to P you off.

    I have an X DIL who is still getting dogs that end up in the pound when she looses interest. Seems to me a lot of the problem of dogs in pounds are from repeat offenders who would should just be banned from owning dogs at all.

    Dogman too, after looking in pounds for a dog....The sights you see there are sure to put you in the mood for a war.

    I just thinks its better to wage it in ways that work sustainably by tackling the cause.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-21-2015 at 08:28 AM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    What puzzles me then is the endless supply with waiting lists of people willing to pay several thousand dollars or more for designer dogs and blue staffys or whatever with no health testing whatsoever. Also people seem prepared to pay a lot of money for breeds that are physically challenge from the start, I dont understand that either.

    There are also many dogs dumped or euthaniased when there is a medical problem, including pregnant bitches, that cant be afforded. None of that makes sense to me.

    I am far from wealthy and will be working till I am at least 70 and I can still afford to invest in dogs with some basic health testing in their breeding at a fraction of the price than people seem prepared to pay for completely untested animals. So I am not sure what your point is.

    Too me it isnt complicated, if you want to breed a couple of dogs you need to at least be aware of and have knowledge of key potential health issues, structure and duty of care towards mother and pups and on the potential to contribute to overflowing pounds.

    People often breed family dogs based on emotion and old wives tails.

    As far as the pedigree system is concerned yes there are breeds that have become so narrow in their genetics that I am sure judicious and well though out outcrossing would probably be very helpfull.

    As to the OP and health testing, they kept bringing up that the dog was healthy as per the vet and didnt seem willing to understand or pursue the information that was given even before the couple of hardline posts. I think they took exception right from the start which often happens when the posts are not totally positive and supports what they are wanting to do. I have noticed that on other forums.
    A lot of people have no idea these dogs ARE pysicaly challenged. Especialy when the traits were brought about through selective breeders in breed clubs, the experts. People are behind the times. Most of the breeds were created well before the advent of the K.Cs and were quite successful for the most part, with out the tests that are available today. The dominant K.Cs, because of their rulings, are insular, and view whats lies outside of their own domain as antagonistic. They don't make their weakness public. And what they are surrounded by, today, is normal. It can be justified because they see THEY are the ones actively tackling the issues.

    Before K.Cs, most people in the business of breeding anything were forced to use estimated breeder values, even without the numerical estimates of the heritability of the traits they were looking to bring or eliminate. For the most part, it works and when things do go wrong, as they will when you are dealing with life, the faults donn't make it into the next round. Those who are excluded from the K.Cs inner knowledge are still back there, only with out even the basic understanding people once had when most were a little closer to the land, or nature.

    EBVs work better than testing to reduce unwanted traits because they don't reduce the the gene pool in the same way, so doesn't increase the chances of one problem being replaced with another. Its a closer approximation to environmental selection. Testing is great way to eliminate traits that have no value whatsoever. In other cases, there may an over riding value. There are a lot of conditions in my breed where testing is useless because mode of inheritance is not understood, or there are no tests for conditions that only show up later in life. EBVs again.

    The K.Cs do not give full disclosure of the state of breeds, instead they trott out the mantra of buy from an ethical, pedigree breeder and the buyer is left with impression thats all there is to it, That a pedigree breeder MUST be ethical. No education of the public to tell people what practices bring what value, or why.

    I don't think its suprising that designer dogs are so popular when you look at the example of how the K.Cs judge a "good dog".

    Many dogs are dumped when theres a medical problem that can't be afforded, yes. Many more are not. Many will go with out foods or basics to ensure their pet gets care. Some of those may find themselves with no other options in the end. Over all. welfare IS improving.Vastly. Its too easy to forget that when we focus on the people who are just uncaring selfish nobs.

    The OP took exception to the tone, not the knowledge. If their vet told them they have a healthy dog, of course they were confused. Basic genetics is beyond the general persons understanding and basic genetics no longer applies to pedigree dogs. EBVs meant problems rarely became fixed in lines or could be avoided THROUGH EBVS. The K.Cs breeders chose a different route and created their own science.

    "people often breed dogs based on emotion or old wives tales" Yes, they do. That why I think its important to give them more. People WON"T know better unless these things are discussed openly. We aren't born with knowledge.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-21-2015 at 11:35 AM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hyacinth View Post
    Hi All

    I've done a little bit of editing to remove some of the direct abuse... please don't do that. It's not just the OP who comes here looking for information - any opportunity we have here to explain why their idea is so upsetting is good. Calling them all sorts of names which you might feel are apt - doesn't help the greater purpose. I'm happy for you to say rude things about puppy millers and BYB generally without pointing the finger at any person or entity specifically (Unless they've just been convicted in a court of law - and lost the appeal).

    This person came here to learn more about the process so we should do our best to help.
    Direct abuse...I think not just telling it how it is. People like this don't come on here to as you say..."learn more about the process" they're in it for the money nothing more.

    I did do my best to help and gave some good advice unfortunately some of it was removed...we don't want to upset would-be backyard breeders do we.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  5. #25
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    People like this don't come on here to as you say..."learn more about the process"
    That's what the Opening poster (OP) said in their OP. I'm sure she's learned something and probably read a lot of stuff she'd rather not know but better now than being surprised by it later.

    I did not remove any advice from your post Dogman. Only edited out specific words of abuse. And yes I agree they were fairly tame words but even so, the person has enough brains to come in here and ask. I didn't see any adverts for buying the puppies and I'd probably take those down since I think there is a requirement that people advertising actual puppies register them with the ANKC or working line equivalent.

    But anything that looks like an ad for puppy farms - does get deleted and we've had a few of those lately.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    A lot of people have no idea these dogs ARE pysicaly challenged. Especialy when the traits were brought about through selective breeders in breed clubs, the experts. People are behind the times. Most of the breeds were created well before the advent of the K.Cs and were quite successful for the most part, with out the tests that are available today. The dominant K.Cs, because of their rulings, are insular, and view whats lies outside of their own domain as antagonistic. They don't make their weakness public. And what they are surrounded by, today, is normal. It can be justified because they see THEY are the ones actively tackling the issues.

    Before K.Cs, most people in the business of breeding anything were forced to use estimated breeder values, even without the numerical estimates of the heritability of the traits they were looking to bring or eliminate. For the most part, it works and when things do go wrong, as they will when you are dealing with life, the faults donn't make it into the next round. Those who are excluded from the K.Cs inner knowledge are still back there, only with out even the basic understanding people once had when most were a little closer to the land, or nature.

    EBVs work better than testing to reduce unwanted traits because they don't reduce the the gene pool in the same way, so doesn't increase the chances of one problem being replaced with another. Its a closer approximation to environmental selection. Testing is great way to eliminate traits that have no value whatsoever. In other cases, there may an over riding value. There are a lot of conditions in my breed where testing is useless because mode of inheritance is not understood, or there are no tests for conditions that only show up later in life. EBVs again.

    The K.Cs do not give full disclosure of the state of breeds, instead they trott out the mantra of buy from an ethical, pedigree breeder and the buyer is left with impression thats all there is to it, That a pedigree breeder MUST be ethical. No education of the public to tell people what practices bring what value, or why.

    I don't think its suprising that designer dogs are so popular when you look at the example of how the K.Cs judge a "good dog".

    Many dogs are dumped when theres a medical problem that can't be afforded, yes. Many more are not. Many will go with out foods or basics to ensure their pet gets care. Some of those may find themselves with no other options in the end. Over all. welfare IS improving.Vastly. Its too easy to forget that when we focus on the people who are just uncaring selfish nobs.

    The OP took exception to the tone, not the knowledge. If their vet told them they have a healthy dog, of course they were confused. Basic genetics is beyond the general persons understanding and basic genetics no longer applies to pedigree dogs. EBVs meant problems rarely became fixed in lines or could be avoided THROUGH EBVS. The K.Cs breeders chose a different route and created their own science.

    "people often breed dogs based on emotion or old wives tales" Yes, they do. That why I think its important to give them more. People WON"T know better unless these things are discussed openly. We aren't born with knowledge.
    I think with EBVs you need a lot of data from reletives and family and across the whole breeds, which means that say for the risk of hip and elbow dysplasia you still need a lot of scores, testing, diagnosis and information to be collected. I guess you could use whole of breed information to say that you probably dont need to screen whippets for elbow dysplasia.

    I think in the past people where dogs were often used to work or for a purpose, people were probably more selective in their breeding for healthy dogs and culling was commonly used to keep poor genetics out of the breed, this still happens in the working dog world.

    I have also had working dogs that have no testing done but they they have been fairly rigourously selected just by the nature of what they do and their breeders have alot of good information on their lines going way back, I guess a form of EBV.

    In the modern era the genetic conditions that are not complex however really just involve a simple test to identify carriers. A friend of mine bred a working border collie litter and lost the lot to the terrible TNS and after that she tested all her breeding dogs.

    I dont think the popularity of designer dogs have much to do with what people think of the kennel club. Most people I know who have these dogs have never heard of the kennel club. They are more sold on the hype and marketing expertise and are willing to pay big dollars apparently. Attracted by flashy websites promising all sorts of characteristics. My point is that lots of ordinary people are willing to pay big dollars for these dogs so I dont think basic tests are going to be pricing dogs out of the market, I have paid a lot less for dogs from breeders with testing in their program.
    Yes people do spend big dollars on medical conditions that according to specialist vets I know could be reduced by thoughtful, knowledgable breeding pedigree or not.

    No you arent born with knowledge so if confused then ask. There was pleasant offering of information. I do hope the OP cames back to ask more questions. Yes I have left a forum once because of rather aggressive postings, but not before I gave it a good go, had my say, asked questions and finally decided I was over it.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-21-2015 at 11:06 PM.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    I think with EBVs you need a lot of data from reletives and family and across the whole breeds, which means that say for the risk of hip and elbow dysplasia you still need a lot of scores, testing, diagnosis and information to be collected. I guess you could use whole of breed information to say that you probably dont need to screen whippets for elbow dysplasia.

    I think in the past people where dogs were often used to work or for a purpose, people were probably more selective in their breeding for healthy dogs and culling was commonly used to keep poor genetics out of the breed, this still happens in the working dog world.

    I have also had working dogs that have no testing done but they they have been fairly rigourously selected just by the nature of what they do and their breeders have alot of good information on their lines going way back, I guess a form of EBV.

    In the modern era the genetic conditions that are not complex however really just involve a simple test to identify carriers. A friend of mine bred a working border collie litter and lost the lot to the terrible TNS and after that she tested all her breeding dogs.

    I dont think the popularity of designer dogs have much to do with what people think of the kennel club. Most people I know who have these dogs have never heard of the kennel club. They are more sold on the hype and marketing expertise and are willing to pay big dollars apparently. Attracted by flashy websites promising all sorts of characteristics. My point is that lots of ordinary people are willing to pay big dollars for these dogs so I dont think basic tests are going to be pricing dogs out of the market, I have paid a lot less for dogs from breeders with testing in their program.
    Yes people do spend big dollars on medical conditions that according to specialist vets I know could be reduced by thoughtful, knowledgable breeding pedigree or not.

    No you arent born with knowledge so if confused then ask. There was pleasant offering of information. I do hope the OP cames back to ask more questions. Yes I have left a forum once because of rather aggressive postings, but not before I gave it a good go, had my say, asked questions and finally decided I was over it.
    EBVs, yeah, the more information, the better but to be useful you would look at the breed 1st to find common problems. To choose your breeding stock, you are looking more specificaly at lines.
    Yes, people need to learn to be a lot more selective. Which would aid in welfare tremendously. You can bet a form of EBV is being used extensively by good working dog breeders even if the don't know the term.

    Culling still goes on. Again not as selectively. Spey and nueter, limmit register in the K.Cs. And like it or not, in our pound stystems, though much of that could be avoided with more thoughtful breeding and homing. Which won't change until there is real discussion about breeding practices and the purpose of breeding.

    WHen dogs were kept for work or purpose, they were more selective. It was clearer where the value lay. So we need a way to get people to THINK of purpose when they breed. Even if thats show ring, or pet. So they are responsible for suitabilitry their OWN choices. They won't suit everyone. Thats environment specific. But because of that, buyers also would be forced to recognise their own responsibilities for their choices and what to look for. Legislation won't do that.

    Health testing CAN BE the most valuable tool for those problems where there is a definitive yes or no test . I'm not saying it has no place. It most definitely does. And I would use testing to avoid any problems being introduced to my lines. Especialy if using a pedigree dog, or cross I deemed had a very strong influence of a particular breed. But these problems are relatively new to domestic dogs and have been largely brought about by the pedigree system of closed lines with little environmental selection. Its not a problem brought about by the environment, or the communities efforts to breed dogs that suit them. Its a problem brough about by the advent of the K.Cs and their rules that deny an environmental or community influence on breeding practices. So its realy not fair to blame the poor breeding practices of the uneducated for the state things have got to. The science that worked has been changed when The K.Cs sought ownership of direction and science by ruling on what occurrs out side of their own system.
    And for that, they assume no responsibility.
    There is no purpose to breeding dogs with out responsibility. Response-ability forms intent, not the other way around. If you deny environmental influence, you deny purpose and response-ability TO and from the environment. Basic Biological physics. We lose resonsibility.

    That can be rectified with a simple rule change that does not require any change in the way the K.C members or organisation operate. Nor will it force any additional responsibility on the K.Cs as is progressively happening now. They could truely be, a registry only. Because it would give responsibility back to the community.

    The poularity of designer dogs has little to do with what the public thinks of the K.Cs, True. But I I'm pretty sure it has a LOT to do with the K.Cs influence on how the community thinks about dogs .
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-22-2015 at 11:03 AM.

  8. #28
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    I think a lot of pet people breed their dogs for reasons such as thinking their bitch needs to have a litter to settle her, or to experience being a mother , or for the kids. Males seem to think that their male dogs need to sire a litter, mayb to be manly? Others love their pet so much they want puppies from them. Others just dont understand the reporductive cycle and have an oops litter. Some have a dog they believe all their friends want a pup from and others just think they might make some easy money.

    The reasons I have heard often seem quite reasonable to the person. There are a whole of people out there that really do not have much knowledge on the whole subject. I dont know about the Kennel clubs influence on the community, maybe it is increasing but I had dogs for years and it wasnt untill I started doing agility that I had any idea about what the kennel clubs are. It wasnt untill I had my first dog with elbow dysplasia that I really started to understand the significance of health. However in all my years of owning dogs, not once did it ever cross my mind to breed because I knew there was a whole lot more to it than just throwing 2 dogs together for very uninformed reasons, and I also knew that rescues and pound were overflowing.

    Now there is a lot of information availble much more easily but still people persist in breeding their dogs in an uninformed way.

  9. #29

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    So lets give them back responsibility. That can only happen when the K.Cs are forced to recognise THEIR responsibilities to their environment.
    And start teaching the value of what they do.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    So lets give them back responsibility. That can only happen when the K.Cs are forced to recognise THEIR responsibilities to their environment.
    And start teaching the value of what they do.
    Yeah well I am not sure that is ever going to happen anytime soon. So I guess we have to try and do the best we can on forums like this.

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