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Thread: First time breeder in need of advise

  1. #11
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    The forum certainly attracts many backyard breeders and puppy millers.

    Op... here's some expert advice for you...

    Visit several pounds and shelters...you can make a day of it and see the results of other backyard breeders just like you...then go home get your dog take it to the nearest vet and have it Desexed...then (edit).

    Over the last 6 months of so I've been to several pounds and a shelter looking for my next dog...to see these poor dogs is heartbreaking not to mention very depressing in knowing many of these poor dogs will be put down and never know the joy of being in a loving home.

    (edit) all the (edit) backyard breeders...puppy millers can rot in hell.
    Last edited by Hyacinth; 07-19-2015 at 08:56 PM.
    Chloe & Zorro
    Rottweilers and German Shepherds are Family

  2. #12

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    Peeps,

    While I can understand where you are all coming from, This IS pure AND cross breed forum. You will see these questions regularly and while most claim education is the answer, very few seem willing to undertake that in an unbiased manner.

    Education has to start some where and If a Pure AND cross breed forum can't do that in a way that will help improve the situation, they are part of the problem.

    Driving people away, the way thats being done here, only turns people further from pedigree dogs. This is a person who, tho' uneducated, has come here looking to learn. Don't censure that, aid it. And just maybe this person will not only learn, but help to educate others.

    Kristy Marie,
    Pedigree dogs are not the answer to all our prayers, much as we like to think its that easy. Not in the present form the dominant system opperates under. There are many expert people who can attest to that. So that "information" on what makes a responsible breeder is not only biased, but flawed. That is hardly going to give people confidence to put all their faith in that basket. WHY do you feel thats the only responsible option ? That anwer might do do more to educate, if thats your goal.

    Health testing does have a prominant place in breeding responsibly, especialy where conditions that can be tested for are common in pure breeds. But I will argue that apart from designer breeds with high price tags, Its an unrealistic expectation to demand of all who cross breed before they will be considered to even approach responsibility, while the same demands are not being made of pedigree breeders along with full disclosure of health status. Especialy when these conditions, for the most part, originated in pure breeds and continue to increase while blood lines continue to tighten in the efforts SOME members make to elliminate those here now.

    For conditions where there is both environmental and genetic component, Such as hips, EBVs hav proven to be more effective to decrease the incidence. ( estimated breeder value)

    Bear in mind too that soucing quality health tested dogs with full discloser on both sides, for a breeding that takes place outside of the K.Cs controll is highly unlikely. Protocols rules and even the culture of the dominant K.Cs ensures that mostly, only the poorest quality pure breds can be sourced for breeding out side of their pedigree. DRIVING cross breeding into the mud even more because there IS a lack of education and full disclosure.

    Health testing increases the price breeders are able to ask for pups, and gives "some" guarantees. Its not enough if the numbers of those tests will only increase, the costs of raising the dogs will only increase, when overall health, temperament and longevity still can't be guaranteed. Dogs with high price tags yes, people should expect the guantees orovided by health testing. But unless alternative methods are found to maximise health and other traits influenced by a breeders program, all we do is eventualy price dogs out reach of ordinary people and for no real gain as new problems occurr.

    Its pretty much agreed there will always be cross breed dogs. There is no good reason we should help to ensure they will be badly bred and homed, or cared for by refusing to engage in education.

    I suggest reading at the least, the blogs put out by the institute of canine biology.

    While we continue to see pedigree breeds that we love brought so low there is little chance of recovery under the present system, cross breeding has to be seen as an area that should and will continue. That doesn't mean it should continue in the mud its been relegated to, or with no responsibility.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-19-2015 at 10:38 AM.

  3. #13
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    Strange fruit you are right I would normally agree, but also the posters really are saying it like it is. There is nowhere else this person will get the range of views. Their friends will not say the truth for risk of offence. The fact that they proposed such a breeding pair means they havent a clue even further underlined by suggesting it here. The outrage is actually a reasonable response from people who are fully aware that if they breed they will add to a heart breaking problem. I honestly cant fault the passion behind these honest responses. They may go away offended but they will be fully informed. Hopefully with some doubts about their plans.
    Usually forum members are more moderate but this one is a doozy!

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    Peeps,

    While I can understand where you are all coming from, This IS pure AND cross breed forum. You will see these questions regularly and while most claim education is the answer, very few seem willing to undertake that in an unbiased manner.

    Education has to start some where and If a Pure AND cross breed forum can't do that in a way that will help improve the situation, they are part of the problem.

    Driving people away, the way thats being done here, only turns people further from pedigree dogs. This is a person who, tho' uneducated, has come here looking to learn. Don't censure that, aid it. And just maybe this person will not only learn, but help to educate others.

    Kristy Marie,
    Pedigree dogs are not the answer to all our prayers, much as we like to think its that easy. Not in the present form the dominant system opperates under. There are many expert people who can attest to that. So that "information" on what makes a responsible breeder is not only biased, but flawed. That is hardly going to give people confidence to put all their faith in that basket. WHY do you feel thats the only responsible option ? That anwer might do do more to educate, if thats your goal.

    Health testing does have a prominant place in breeding responsibly, especialy where conitions that can be tested for are common in pure breeds. But I will argue that apart from designer breeds with high price tags, Its an unrealistic expectation to demand of all who cross breed before they will be considered to even approach responsibility, while the same demands are not being made of pedigree breeders along with full disclosure of health status. Especialy when these conditions, for the most part originated in pure breeds.
    First of all I do agree that education on a forum like this is important. I think it is impoertant to present the facts and hopefully if the OP really does want advice that they stick around and ask lots questions if they dont understand the facts and that people are patient and share their knowledge. If they are helbent on breeding regardless then I guess it will illicit pissed off reactions.


    On the subject of health. I actually dont give a rats arse if the dog is pedigree or not, you need to understand the potential problems that you may pass on when breeding 2 dogs. It not being a pedigree is no excuse not to learn more about what genetic testing may be applicable. I have had several friends who have bought crossbred dogs and had their dogs euthanaised due to severe hip dysplasia and PRA.

    Anybody who does not understand genetic health testing, and hip and elbow screening along, assessment of good structure and temperament along with a good knowledge of any potential birthing and pregnancy problems that may occur in the breed or cross breed thay have has no business whatsoever breeding.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-19-2015 at 10:08 AM.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    Peeps,


    Health testing increases the price breeders are able to ask for pups, and gives "some" guarantees. Its not enough if the numbers of those tests will only increase, the costs of raising the dogs will only increase, when overall health, temperament and longevity still can't be guaranteed. Dogs with high price tags yes, people should expect the guantees orovided by health testing. But unless alternative methods are found to maximise health and other traits influenced by a breeders program, all we do is eventualy price dogs out reach of ordinary people and for no real gain as new problems occurr.
    It costs to raise a good puppy. If the ordinary person cant afford to buy a pup that comes from a litter that has had a few basic health tests then they are not going to be able to afford the care of that dog if a genetic conditions arise. I paid $450 for a dog that was free from PRA and with hip and elbow scans of her parents done by her breeder who I might add is a very low volume breeder so there is probably not much money made. I do have another dog with elbow dysplasia and she cost me near on $5000 for surgery and scans, fortunately she was insured.

    Hip and elbow scores are not a guarantee for sure, but having the parents clear of certain devastating genetic conditions are. Taking the trouble to learn about structure and birthing and pregnancy just requires some time invested.

  6. #16

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    I agree with both of you. But this OP came here to find this out. Responses should be tempered to give credit for that. Reward it.

    Most people have no idea they have no idea. Some don't care. This person did, but may go away feeling it wasn't worth the effort of trying.
    Positive reinforcement works better than negative. That can lead to shutting down. Just as true of people as dogs.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange fruit View Post
    I agree with both of you. But this OP came here to find this out. Responses should be tempered to give credit for that. Reward it.

    Most people have no idea they have no idea. Some don't care. This person did, but may go away feeling it wasn't worth the effort of trying.
    Positive reinforcement works better than negative. That can lead to shutting down. Just as true of people as dogs.
    I think there has been some postive advice given and invitation to ask more. I remember as a first time poster on the American working Border collie boards, at the time I owned a show and sport bred BC and knew nothing of the USA border collie wars. I dared to suggest that I saw nothing wrong breeding Border collies for agility. Well I got totally blasted as you can imagine lol, but I persisted and asked lots of questions. Some were just plain rude and abusive but a few kind souls patiently put their points forward and I was pmd by a kind soul who explained it all and we are firm friends to this day, even meeting when she came for a holiday. I sure learnt a lot and although I still dont 100% agree with their hard line I very much understand where they are coming from, and now I have a farm I own working bred Border collies that I also do agility with. Thes types of forums are always full of passion and opinions but if you ask thoughtful questions and display that you really want to know more then advice will be given. As I said if you are determined not to listen to advice because your mind is already made up then there was no point asking in the first place, that is probably trolling.

  8. #18
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    Hi All

    I've done a little bit of editing to remove some of the direct abuse... please don't do that. It's not just the OP who comes here looking for information - any opportunity we have here to explain why their idea is so upsetting is good. Calling them all sorts of names which you might feel are apt - doesn't help the greater purpose. I'm happy for you to say rude things about puppy millers and BYB generally without pointing the finger at any person or entity specifically (Unless they've just been convicted in a court of law - and lost the appeal).

    This person came here to learn more about the process so we should do our best to help.

  9. #19

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    Thankyou, Hyacinth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    It costs to raise a good puppy. If the ordinary person cant afford to buy a pup that comes from a litter that has had a few basic health tests then they are not going to be able to afford the care of that dog if a genetic conditions arise.
    I agree anyone breeding needs to be aware of any heath condition likely to occurr in those breed(s) Basic as that is to experienced people, EVERYONE has to learn that 1st. I did not see any indication the OP was not willing to do that..

    As for the argument that someone unable to afford a health tested pup should not have a dog because they won't be able to afford an unhealthy one, Well I think thats a very good reason for these problems to be honestly tackled at their source with methods that will work for the longer term health of the species.
    Unless we are all happy with the thought that in future, dogs will be a perogative of the wealthy only.

    An honest look at the dominant pedigree system to find the source of the problems occurring would go a long way to improving the welfare of dogs in our communities, the education levels of dog owners and breeders, and health issues in both pure and cross breeds.

    Its realy not as complicated as people choose to think. Its the rules people accept as some sort of scientific truth that make it so much more difficult and complicated.
    Last edited by Strange fruit; 07-20-2015 at 09:16 AM.

  10. #20
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    What puzzles me then is the endless supply with waiting lists of people willing to pay several thousand dollars or more for designer dogs and blue staffys or whatever with no health testing whatsoever. Also people seem prepared to pay a lot of money for breeds that are physically challenge from the start, I dont understand that either.

    There are also many dogs dumped or euthaniased when there is a medical problem, including pregnant bitches, that cant be afforded. None of that makes sense to me.

    I am far from wealthy and will be working till I am at least 70 and I can still afford to invest in dogs with some basic health testing in their breeding at a fraction of the price than people seem prepared to pay for completely untested animals. So I am not sure what your point is.

    Too me it isnt complicated, if you want to breed a couple of dogs you need to at least be aware of and have knowledge of key potential health issues, structure and duty of care towards mother and pups and on the potential to contribute to overflowing pounds.

    People often breed family dogs based on emotion and old wives tails.

    As far as the pedigree system is concerned yes there are breeds that have become so narrow in their genetics that I am sure judicious and well though out outcrossing would probably be very helpfull.

    As to the OP and health testing, they kept bringing up that the dog was healthy as per the vet and didnt seem willing to understand or pursue the information that was given even before the couple of hardline posts. I think they took exception right from the start which often happens when the posts are not totally positive and supports what they are wanting to do. I have noticed that on other forums.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-20-2015 at 11:16 PM.

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