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Thread: Entering into breeding and want every scrap of advice

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Striker View Post
    And btw, nobody truly knows where their dogs will end up, breeder or not. Having papers isn't a fail-safe against ending up in a pound - any dog can, with equal chance. The best anyone can do is question the prospective new owners considerably to make sure they get the best home they can - after the dog is sold to them, there's no rules to what they can or can't do with them, including dump them in a pound if they have to move suddenly, or can't afford the dog because of a lack of job, etc.

    And since the temperaments of both my dogs are excellent, I sincerely doubt they'll end up in the pound from temperamental issues.
    Just a couple of comments here. As a breeder you need to make it absolutely clear that if any problems were to occur that the dog is returned to you. People will usually take this option before offloading at the pound. My breeders insist that their dogs return to them if there is a problem. So a dog with ethical breeder backing should not find itself in the pound. You do need to prepare yourself for this eventuality. Once you breed a pup you need to count yourself as ultimately responsible. So if you breed a sound well structured pup and find the best of homes, this should be a minor risk, but you still ned to accept it as a possibility.

    My concern with Bonnie is that you said that she may be unable to cope mentally with the stresses of agility. Border collies can be highly strung and is a temperament best not bred from particularly as you dont know her lineage. My friend has a very highly strung BC he rescued from the pound, but being an experienced BC owner has manged to deal with it.

    This is where knowledge of your dogs lines comes in handy, it gives you avery good picture of what may be as a consequence of breeding.

    So a resilient temperament is good - a dog that recovers very quickly from an unexpected event and is very stable in the event of pressure, so copes well in stressful situations. I like a dog that is able to cope quickly with the unexpected or a certain amount of pressure. My best dogs have very confident, extroverted personalities.

    The other thing you need to prepare yourself for is if anything were to go wrong with the pregnancy. A breeder friend of mine recently lost one of her best dogs when the uterus ruptured. It cost her thousands of dollars and even with the best vet care, the bitch died. She then had to hand rear the pups. There are sometimes complications which may require a C-section. You also need to have money aside for pre natal xrays and care.

    So the question you need to consider is are you prepared for the worst case scenarios. It may never happen but I know a number of situations where it has, so being prepared is essential.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddogdodge View Post
    This is very true! Having papers doesn't mean the dog cant go to the pound! I've heard of so many papered dogs from registered breeders that end up in the pound! :/
    This would never happen with any of my working or ANKC registered dogs. Their breeders will absolutely take them back. In fact they insist. I will only buy from these types of breeders and belive me they are rigourous in their owner selection and the quality of their dogs.

    My ANKC registered BC bitch is an owner return to her breeder through no fault of the dog. So I picked her up as she was what I was looking for at the time.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 05-26-2013 at 01:17 PM.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalacreek View Post
    This would never happen with any of my working or ANKC registered dogs. Their breeders will absolutely take them back. In fact they insist. I will only buy from these types of breeders and belive me they are rigourous in their owner selection and the quality of their dogs.

    My ANKC registered BC bitch is an owner return to her breeder through no fault of the dog. So I picked her up as she was what I was looking for at the time.
    I dont know how it ends up happening but i've seen many situations where a breeder has discovered one of the dogs they bred in the pound after the owner dumped it and didn't contact the breeder... no matter how sure a breeder is that it would never happen... they can never know, it could very easily happen to any dog!

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by maddogdodge View Post
    I dont know how it ends up happening but i've seen many situations where a breeder has discovered one of the dogs they bred in the pound after the owner dumped it and didn't contact the breeder... no matter how sure a breeder is that it would never happen... they can never know, it could very easily happen to any dog!
    Yes it can happen but a breeder can very work to restrict this. I have a couple of shelter dogs from a very good no kill shelter and I had to sign a document to say that if anything happens to me the dogs are returned to them. I think many breeders dont make this clear and then the owners are perhaps too embarrassed or dont think to contact them. Some breeders can be a bit tardy in placing their dogs and working out the terms.

    I had very long interviews and discussions with my breeders and it was chrystal clear what the terms were. Mind you I do keep in contact with my breeders as they appreciate feedback particularly on the working dogs. Most good breeders who restrict their litters have a very good handle on where their dogs are, make no mistake about that.

    In my experience with rescue and shelters is that I have not known it happen to dogs from from really good breeders.

    I think that if a breeder is prepared to accept that it might happen to one of their dogs then they shouldnt be breeding. Given how many dogs are languishing and often euthaniased in shelters it is an inacceptable risk in my opinion.

    Ethical breeding is possible but it is a very responsible road. One that too many dont take.

    Striker you have the information, use it responsibly and follow the right path for the love of dogs.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 05-26-2013 at 03:48 PM.

  5. #75
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    Look, it's obvious you don't have a very high opinion of me - and to be honest I don't care - but don't delude yourself that I seek the approval of complete strangers. I sought advice, and some of the posters gave very good advice.
    I gave you advice that I have gleaned from people with decades of experience, including people in Border Collies. The only advice you took on board was that along the lines of your own thinking, so people on the internet that you have no idea if they know jack squat about breeding at all can validate your already set ideas on breeding your bitch.

    You show you lack experience and knowledge, you don't want to learn and the fact you're on a forum asking for breeding advice instead of seasoned breeders who can actually physically help you achieve whatever goal you think you want.

    And btw, nobody truly knows where their dogs will end up, breeder or not. Having papers isn't a fail-safe against ending up in a pound - any dog can, with equal chance. The best anyone can do is question the prospective new owners considerably to make sure they get the best home they can - after the dog is sold to them, there's no rules to what they can or can't do with them, including dump them in a pound if they have to move suddenly, or can't afford the dog because of a lack of job, etc.
    Again, not true. And again, you have your own set preconceptions to validate your goals. If you want a pup from me you will sign a hefty contract and the dogs microchip will have a non-changeable secondary contract that is me. The contract will stipulate that if the dog is found to be mistreated or not treated within the bounds of the stipulated provisions I can take it back with no refund to the owner. If you don't want it any more it will have to be returned to me and full percentage ownership will be transferred to me. Simple. Don't like it, don't buy one. Then again it comes down to the simple fact of if you can be bothered to do this and if you can be bothered to potentially own at least half a dozen dogs because they come back to you for whatever reason. You go into breeding expecting some or most will boomerang their way back, if you CANNOT AFFORD FOR THAT TO HAPPEN then you do NOT breed a litter no matter how potentially good your ideas are.

    You also have to socialise the hell out of those puppies with children, bikes, cars, strangers, thunder, loud noises, livestock, small animals etc from the minute their eyes open to the day they leave. Every waking moment is socialisation for a puppy do you have the time and do you want to put in the effort to do it? Otherwise no matter how good your intentions you produce nervy dogs that make bad pets and even worst workers. You have to critique your litter and see which ones you will move onto work socialisation and pet socialisation. Also do you have the fortitude to euthanise puppies that are tiny little things but have severe problems - or will you do expensive surgeries to save them if they have a chance? Heart surgeries can be done but will cost you thousands you will never recoup, not a chance.

  6. #76
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    any dog can, with equal chance.
    Any papered dog to a carefully checked home has an equal chance of a BYB unpapered dog?

    Nope - I would guess on casual viewing of the RSCPA site for SA - it's more like 22 cross breeds or unpapered dogs and zero pedigrees at the moment. So much lower chance of a pedigree ending up at the RSPCA. Breed clubs are likely to intervene for a pedigree - which further reduces the chance and many breeders will take their dog back from the pound or owner if they can.

  7. #77
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    Have closed the thread.

    Some people are posting based on the first post and not any of the replies - Striker has two BC - one pedigree and one not - and has already indicated that is reconsidering breeding the not-pedigree - but will do the checks first. And also that they're keen to do some sort of agility or similar to get some proven track record - with one or both of them. Which would be great.

    And Striker has pretty much gotten all there is to get from what we've said without repeating ourselves or causing the usual resistance from harassing a young person - where you end up with just the opposite of what you hoped for because you didn't give enough room for them to evaluate their own ideas on the subject.

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