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Thread: Entering into breeding and want every scrap of advice

  1. #11


    Are either of your dogs proper working dogs? By that I mean are they spending their days working sheep or cattle? (my apologies if you've answered that above)

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2010


    sounds good
    as long as everything done properly, and you got a little saved up for emergency's ect
    and most other breeders will bully and belittle you into not going ahead with what you want.
    but just stand ya ground and shrug them off.
    all breeders started somewhere, back in the day without any Info on past generations or problems, and how did they find out... trial and error. its all luck of the draw anyway. sure somethings can be certain, but when there is none, theres only one way to find out, and thats where everyone starts to learn and the controled breeding cycle starts and hopefully gets better with every generation.

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Geelong, Vic


    5. I still don't see why type is important for a non-conformation dog? As long as there's not minor deformations going on like perhaps, an overly-long back or short legs, which might hinder a working BC, I can't see that it'd make that much difference as to their conformation. I will attach another photo of her at the end of this post - I don't know that it will change your opinion, it might be that it'll just solidify it, but we'll see anyway.
    No I would still not breed her, she is not right and you need to see that properly. When you buy a pup for breeding you cannot guarentee they will grow into a breeding dog that is a fact. Frankly you should desex your bitch and find a complementary line to your male that has pedigrees with health tests. A dog that is not right physically cannot perform to its peak - you want to breed them for agility, obedience etc if dogs you produce cannot jump, run or sustain pace for any prolonged period then they cannot achieve.
    I believe Bonnie's parents were classically marked,
    This also concerns me - if her litter was SUCH a mixed bag from two black and white dogs I would be concerned what is in the genetics. Borders also carry things like achondroplasic dwarfism which is another concern for you.

    Form and function are interwined, and I repeat that. The outside can give you signals on what is good or potentially bad on the inside you cannot see, and signals of what the dog may be carrying genetically. Before you breed you need a LOT more reading up on Border Collie genetics, dog training and dog sports and what form the dogs need to fulfill their genetic potential. No point having a sharp brain on a shit body or vice versa.

    Bonnie's parents were born and bred working sheep dogs, Bonnie has a prey drive but she can be called out of it.
    If Bonnie was good enough to be a working farm dog she would still be on a farm and would have passed on her genetics - have a good think about that. No one, especially farmers, will sell you their best dogs. They sold you a pet quality dog, which from her working lines is below standard.
    Breeders did not let you have a papered bitch because 1) you are not a registered breeder and 2) they are the most over bred dog in this country. Why don't you sit the ANKC test, go trial your male in ANKC obedience, agility etc and you will have your pick of bitches?

    As for HD dogs I have had 2 severely HD dogs. By that age it's more due to arthritis and not feeding the joints the dogs legs are going to splay out which HD itself does not cause. My rottweiler had no hip sockets and severely bad elbows he lived for 4 years mostly off medications. It was hard and crap but there is ways to keep HD dogs going well along the way.

    Uhm..I don't really know why you think that, since I specifically stated I'd be breeding for health and temperament, then colour.
    Which you cannot do with unpapered, unknown dogs. You won't listen to that point and you have grand plans of your own kennel and lines. You want to desex your pups? You will have no 'lines', no kennel of your own you will be a backyard breeder breeding F1 generation dogs under the pretense of being ethical or whatever idea you may have. That is all you will have because you have pups that you cannot prove anything about.

    All pedigree kennels started with pedigree dogs, I don't knwo where you got he idea they have no pedigrees.

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2012


    Striker, you appear to be a caring, intelligent individual. I know from past similar postings that the response here is very restrained.
    Of course many people want to breed their dogs because they love them and think they are great. Not a good enough reason

    The bottom line is, if you breed non papered dogs you are breeding mongrels. You have no history and the genetic stock is unknown. Unless you are planning to invest a huge amount of time money and heartache in a longterm breeding program,you are no different from any other back yard breeder. Breeders start with the best stock and it needs to be registered and a known quantity.

    You have the right to do what you want, but not too many people will applaud the decision on here. You are lucky to have two beautiful dogs.
    Do ALOT more homework and get scientific and buy good stock, or you are contributing to the thousands of very very cute and beautiful lost strays. Awful things WILL happen, if not to that litter but to litters from them or from those, a very short cycle. You will have started it. Just watch Eldad Hagar, those dogs started out as cute little puppies.There are plenty of mongrels in Australia, love them, I own one.However cute they shouldn't be bred.

    If breeding was my life dream and it was once, I would spend months, probably years before I started. You are asking questions here, a teeny tiny start.It is a science, a complex one. The collective wisdom here goes into hundreds of years.But will you listen to what they say? Or are you looking for someone to agree with you?
    Last edited by farrview; 05-20-2013 at 08:32 AM.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    se qld


    Farrview has said it all.
    I will just repeat that if you go ahead with this you are just adding to the problem
    of homeless dogs in Australia.

  6. #16


    oh god here we go again
    Didn't you guys do the same thing to me when I told you my mum was a breeder
    And show you photos of our stock look guys she wants to breed let her
    Striker look do more research on this first before you make up you mind
    I rec you should read this book
    The joys of breeding your own show dog by Ann seranne
    You will learn a lot from it I have a copy if you want me to I send it up to you
    But with breeding dog lots of things can happen eg fading puppy or worse you have to be prepared to lose some
    Do more research talk to breeders google it
    and go one step at a time Btw she will be a great mum
    Last edited by ruby mc nugget; 05-20-2013 at 09:13 AM.
    If you are reading this then you're doing just fine as to
    I'm not going to tell ya I lost the ' , . ? ! " Keys to my head
    No grammar no problem I don't know how to fly it any way Bye

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    melbourne australia


    The the 3 types of customer for a new BC pup: working, pet, or conformation. Your pups will fall into the 'pet' market force. And a pet BC with working lines, makes a high maintenance pet BC. I know that there are BC's who haven't worked for generations, are couch potatoes practically. Ive seen enough fat ones around to testify to this. But that is NOT a BC in my opinion.

    Sounds like you are trying to be responsible for you dog, and the breed standard. I wish you luck with your decision.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2009


    Ruby Mc Nugget

    The stories you tell about your mum drive me nuts - specifically the ones where she won't get a vet at the times when your dog clearly needs one. It's heart breaking. I don't think she should be breeding when she can't afford basic health care for the critters she has, let alone do any preventative (genetic) testing.


    I'm guessing they'd go into family pet 95% of the time, with agility close after (both are super athletic and smart, so I think they'd achieve well in agility - thought about putting Rebel through agility at some point, as he can jump 4-5 high from a standstill and up to 10ft long when he's got a runup, and he's really fit - he will literally run forever). Would give some extra credence to him as well if he has some competition background.
    You don't want to be guessing about this. You want to have committed trustworthy patient people lined up *before* your bitch gets pregnant. Some of them might miss out this way but these would be the kind of home you'd want. What you don't want is impulse buyers from gumtree. Because they don't know what they're getting into.

    You'd have a much better chance of finding good homes for your BC puppies - if their parents do have some proven competition performance in agility, obedience, tracking, dances with dogs, performance tricks or tv work, herding sports or actual herding work on farms. Ie something that sets your dogs apart as desireable from the squillions and squillions of others.

    You could start by doing the dna tests for each dog - and comparing those against the list of known problems with BCs.
    Disorders by Breed - Border collie - LIDA Dogs - Faculty of Veterinary Science - The University of Sydney

    In Australia, there are DNA tests available for Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome (TNS) and CL (Ceroid Lipofuscinosis) through the University of NSW (Dr Alan Wilton) and CEA via Genetic Science Services in Melbourne (on behalf of Optigen USA).

    The Hereditary Diseases Subcommittee of the National Border Collie Council of Australia recommends that:
    •all breeding stock should be tested, unless their parents have been DNA tested and found to be clear of the diseases,
    •anyone contemplating purchasing a Border Collie should be aware of these tests and that they should ask to see the test results for parents of any pup they propose to purchase.
    TNS (Trapped Neutrophil Syndrome)
    Puppies with TNS - die a slow horrible death very young. And breeders who don't check for this contribute to it, and buyers who don't check the paperwork - are the unwitting victims of it. And it's avoidable. Get the DNA tests done. And not the doggy breed tests - get the health check tests.

    This would be an easy first step for you to do before you decide what dogs you want to breed and whether you should look at getting a different bitch to start your breeding with.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Brisbane, Qld


    You've all given me lots to think about, and I did know I was gonna get chewed on in the forums for asking, because I always do haha. Breeders starting with pedigrees - where are their papers? I see a line of pedigrees, and the foundation dogs have no papers or lineage, so can't be proven pedigree. Now I have seen a number of these, so I know it's not a once-off thing. Bonnie is from a working line, but her whole litter was for sale - I imagine the guy who bred her didn't need any more working dogs, as they were 7-8 weeks old when he was selling them. Too young to be able to tell the herding abilities.

    I don't intend to breed her straight away, I'm well used to waiting (been waiting 4 years). Also the first pic I put in of her may not have been the best regarding the nictating eyelid - she'd just been rolling in the grass and dust for like half an hour, so it probably made her react a bit.

    What I want to do is this (want):
    Breed 1 litter from Bonnie. Have her desexed and keep Rebel entire.
    The Bonnie x Rebel litter will be desexed and sold to new homes, w/contract.
    This prevents more breedings, as that's out of my hands.
    They're not contributing to the homeless dog situation as I have several (by several I mean at least 15 spread around brisbane) homes who are keen for a BC, pup or young dog, and have no plans to get one in the next year or two.

    Rebel will be kept entire for future use - when I have more land and therefore can have more stock (with permit), that's when the papered girls will come into it.
    Also, how are you supposed to get into breeding when everyone wants you to use a papered, mains registered bitch, yet nobody will sell you one because you're not a registered breeder? Seems like that old thing 'you need 3 years experience before we'll give you the job' hahaha.

    There is still a lot more research to do, and it's possible that I'm just reinventing the wheel. But I'm going to search this out fully - forums are only one part to thousands of the research involved in breeding. I'll have a think on it, you guys have given me a lot to mull over.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Brisbane, Qld


    Hyacinth - you posted at the same time I did, so I'm going to respond to that one separate.
    Health checks are REALLY something I intend to go through with because I think you're risking a lot without them. Of course, if either of them shows positive I'll have the offender(s) desexed and start afresh in the future with other dogs, as that's not something I want to put either the new dogs or the families through.

    This is relevant but kind of off topic to the thread in general - I do want to try and get them into advertising. I've had loads of comments on their looks and Bonnie's eyes especially, and I don't think advertising agents care if it's 'breed standard' or not, as long as it's appealing. I'm not really sure how to go about it though, how do you get into that sort of thing? Both are well trained and can learn new tricks quickly so it wouldn't be too much of a problem to teach them poses.

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