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Thread: Pedigree papers, limited?

  1. #1
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    Default Pedigree papers, limited?

    Hi to all breeders, and a big thankyou for the pups ive been provided with over the years. Having just read lucky ladies saga for her last litter, im no dog breeder.

    However, im beginning to consider showing, if i could. And realise your boys must have all their bits to enter.
    So, can someone give me a idiots guide on getting a pup. That could one day stud. Never whelp. Girl dogs are not my thing.

    Ive read on this site about limited registers, full registers???
    I was interested, but bad timing when lucky had a her litter. And from that litter a pup broke their tail, so it would only go on a limited register. I dont understand, as a skeletal injury post birth, would not be passed down genetically. So all of this is double dutch to me. And being on limited register, made him $800 instead of ? but near 2 grand id guess. How does this work?

    I would like to:
    own a boy dog, that i could show for fun. If he turned out nice, and i could do so responsibly, perhaps put him to stud.
    I have owned entire males, and dont have issues with having entire males. None have been reactive due to training, and all very obedient.

    I have never shown in Australia, have clearly a poor understanding of breeding and the sire's owners responsibilties.

    I have a dog, that was desexed as a condition of us taking him from breeder. But oh my, what a waste of genes this was! The pup they chose to keep is nowhere near as good as mine, according to breeder, its now too late of course. Wouldnt it be nice, if i still had the option of breeder that line further. Whereas my dogs sire has now passed on. The line ends there.

    Why is a dog with a broken tail, on a limited register, whatever this is, and why is the price half of what it would be?

    thanks in advance for your patient responses to a curious only ever pet owner, never breeder.

  2. #2
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    Oct 2010
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    If you have a Breeder you get on with really well, you could take on one of her/his "possibly high expectations dog"..this is what we have done in the past, both bitches and dogs..She chose the puppies and we went into a contract with her. Her name stayed on the paperwork with ours and we did the showing with a lot of support from her (and teaching/guiding)...When we got to Championship, she chose the dog/bitch to breed to if the dog was considered up to her expectations, not only getting its championship. We also had to make sure of character expectations in the newfies. And ofcourse our dogs are hip/elbow scored, cardiac and DNA tested

    Our Breeder uses our Stud dogs and has also suggested to other newfie Breeders our dogs in the past and present, they are a very close community..........

    BUT.........I know the GSD is a very different kettle of fish now as they are (the good Breeders) really trying to improve the Breeding and the dogs have to pass not only medical and physical assessments, but also some different show grading. Someone please have some input, because i am speaking from the sidelines here...........

    We do a lot of Obedience and Tracking with the GSD Club locally we are honorary members LOL..I hear them talk a lot about how their newish system is quite strict now as they are trying to improve their breed. you need to speak with a good GSD Breeder. I am quite impressed with how the Breed is trying to get past the problems they have been having in their breed

    If you are having difficulty I can ask my friends for some more info, I should maybe listen better LOL
    Pets are forever

  3. #3
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    My understanding of the registers here in Vic is that the limited register is for those dogs that are pedigree'd, but for whatever reason do not meet the breed standard for showing (with Boxers, this would be things like ears too long/short, nose out of proportion to skull, or being more than 80% white {guestimating the percentage, going from memory}) - but a skeletal injury to the tail would certainly exclude a pedigree puppy from showing, as the dog would no longer meet the breed standard in terms of the tail conformation.

    Limited registry doesn't stop you from doing agility / obedience competitions though - just showing/breeding.

  4. #4
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    I would assume that the pup who broke its tail was put on a limited register because 1. as Pinkest said the dog would no longer conform to the standard and 2. depending on HOW the tail was broken could mean a weakness in the skeletal structure so would not be a good dog to breed from.

    On the original question about breeding and showing. The best is to talk about it to the breeder you would want to get the pup from. Or even a few breeders that you like. Find one that would be open to helping you along the way. Also going to as many shows as you can as well to meet more of the breeders is always a good idea
    "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try to train him to be semihuman. The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland

  5. #5
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    I never will understand how breaking a tail will preclude from showing. The mother of one of mine was an Australian champion when she had an accident and broke her tail in door. Give me a break, she had already proven that she had the right conformation etc., now she doesnt? The whole thing defies logic.

    My pup was put on the limited register by the breeder, as she does with all the pups that she sells to non showing homes regardless of the quality of the pup.

    I think GSDS would take a lot of knowledge to breed given how the quality seems to have declined and I have seen some what I would consider horrible backend structures in the show ring, compared to the working police and military GSDS I knew in my childhood.

    If I was going to think about breeding them I would start by really looking into the history of the GSD and really learn a thing or to about structure and about various lines and pedigrees around the world. In some countries a GSD also has to have working titles before it is considered worthy of breeding.

  6. #6
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    A puppies pedigree papers can be either full or limited. Full meaning the breeder believes the dog is worthy of being bred from or they trust that the person will do the right thing with the dog.

    Limited means that the dog is considered not good enought to breed from or the breeder may be protecting their lines from mis-use of breeding etc etc.

    Any puppy I sell that I believe is not good enough to be bred from is put on limited register. I have sold full register puppies to obedience people, who I trusted a LOT. In many instances I thought these pups quality were unknown at time of sale or the person was willing to take them to a few shows and desex them later down the track if either they hated the show ring or I decided that puppy hadn't worked out as a show/breeding prospect. In most instances people I sell a full register puppy to will have either been referred to me as wonderful owners or they are getting their second pup from me.

    I have a bitch who has wonderful lines and is lovely but took her front teeth out on a garden tap at full pelt at around 6 months of age.

    As I have room I have kept her here and she has had one litter.

    I suppose I could have changed her paperwork to limited and sold her as a pet. Or I could of sold her on full register for her blood lines to another breeder. But really I just didn't want to part with her.

    I guess however if I was pushed for room or had council laws with dog limits the best way to protect her would be to sell her on limited register, already desexed.

    Picking a show quality puppy is not always easy, which is why I love my repeat puppy owners and some of my obedience owners who I trust to that next level as I'm prepared to sell entire full register dogs to them so as to not limit my breeding prospects but also not overrun myself with dogs/bitches that will in turn suffer because my time is stretched over too many dogs.

  7. #7
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    The thing is a judge will not know if a broken tail is due to injury or a birth defect.

    It's a conformation contest, a dog is judged on how closely it resembles a standard, which includes it's movement on the day and it's temperament.

    If I had to choose between two good specimens the one without the broken tail will win.

    People have to also remember that entering shows costs money, entering a dog that immediately has a fault and you are handicaped, is it worth you entry fees? But as I said above if you think the dog/bitch is really good and have the room you will keep it for it's breeding possibilities.

  8. #8
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    A GSD is an extremely difficult dog to breed and very tiresome to show. It also has a unique gait or gallop with it rear overreaching, a fault in other breeds. To the layman this gait can appear soft, weak and structurally unsound until you understand it. I will try and find the link to an old gsd video still used today by gsd people, a dog called Dingo I think for memory. If you've already seen it let me know and I won't bother tracking it down with my limited computer skills.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC View Post
    The thing is a judge will not know if a broken tail is due to injury or a birth defect.

    It's a conformation contest, a dog is judged on how closely it resembles a standard, which includes it's movement on the day and it's temperament.

    If I had to choose between two good specimens the one without the broken tail will win.

    People have to also remember that entering shows costs money, entering a dog that immediately has a fault and you are handicaped, is it worth you entry fees? But as I said above if you think the dog/bitch is really good and have the room you will keep it for it's breeding possibilities.
    Yes I know all the reasons why. I also know that one of my best and soundest working dogs had a slight kink at the end of her tail from birth. That would never preclude a good working dog from being bred.

    They let some weird deformities into the show ring under the guise of a standard - thinking the backend of the GSD and yet worry about a tail regardess of how sound the rest of the conformation is. Hidden dangers like ED and HD can be lurking in some lines along with other genetic problems that in some breeds require no testing before they are bred or enter the showring.

    Really I can see why the ANKC and its counterparts sometimes cop a hammering.
    Last edited by Kalacreek; 07-15-2012 at 02:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    If a dog had a kink in the tail but was otherwise good it wouldn't and hasn't deterred me from entering and winning with the dog. In Whippets, a hook tail is not desirable but I've seen some very good Whippets with hook tails that win.

    It may ruin the dog on the stack but if it has other outstanding qualities it won't stop many judges putting it up above other dogs.

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